F-111 wingloading

[haleyes 0]

Someone told me that you can't load an F-111 canopy more that 1:1 because the flare would be mushy or the canopy may collapse. Is this true?

Canopy would be PD 170, exit weight is 225. PD 170 has 200-300 jumps on it. This isn't for me by the way (no really :), but a friend who is transitioning from a 245 to a 139 safire2. He has made a few transition jumps on 200, 170 and 150's. He has 215 jumps total. He's a conservative flyer and, of course, he thinks he can handle it.

Don't want to start another "rapid downsizing" discussion... I'm more interested in the F-111 aspect of high windloading. Thanks

[AggieDave 6]

It *could* be done, but note that F-111 canopies get more porus with the more jumps they get on them. Basically, they really suck over time loaded higher then about 1.1. People load reserves higher then that due to the fact that they don't get jumped much and retain better flight characteristics due to lack of wear.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Sonic 0]

an F-111 at 1.3 would be bad. Landings would be hard, and it'd only get worse with more jumps.

-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[billvon 2,400]

>Someone told me that you can't load an F-111 canopy more that 1:1
> because the flare would be mushy or the canopy may collapse. Is
> this true?

Well, since most people load their F111 reserves higher than that, it is (fortunately) not true for new canopies. However, the higher you load F111, the shorter its useful life is. A friend of mine had a PD170 loaded about 1.1 to 1 that was no good after 400 jumps; I had a PD190 loaded at .9 that lasted about 1000 jumps before it became downright unsafe.

>Canopy would be PD 170, exit weight is 225. PD 170 has 200-300
> jumps on it.

He will likely regret it. That's a 1.3 loading on an old F111.

[Hooknswoop 19]

F-111 (Exacta Chute or others really) fabric doesn't have the flare performance that ZP does. Common rule of thumb is nothing over 1:1. After that good landings can become a challenge and even good technique can sometimes result in a "firm" landings at best.

Sounds like most of his jumps are on a 245 at a 0.92:1 wing loading. He is wanting to move down to a 139 at a 1.63:1 wing loading. With 215 jumps this puts him in a very high risk catagory.

See: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=304270;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

I know you asked to avoid to downsizing debate, but you should have simply asked about F-111 at a 1.32:1 wing loading. I can't ignore the rest of your post.

I don't consider myself a "canopy nazi", but I still offer advice if I see/hear something that I don't thik is a good idea.

I am not saying that if your friend jumps this canopy at that wing loading, he will be injured/killed, I am saying that he is putting himself in a situation with a high risk of injury/death. He needs to be fully aware of the risk he is taking. People tend to not fully understand the risk level they are exposing themselves to, until after they are injured. Then they reduce their risk level by up-sizing their canopy.

Hook

[cobaltdan 0]

i have jumped f111 canopies up to 2:1 (aka my reserve). flies great because as new f111 is comparable to zp. it is after continued use that f111 starts to increase in porosity and loose performance.

best recommendation is do not buy a f111 main canopy. there is absoulutely no reason too. it is older technology and has no place as a primary construction material for main canopies any more.

sincerely,

dan<><>
www.extremefly.com

Daniel Preston <><>
atairaerodynamics.com (sport)
atairaerospace.com (military)

[haleyes 0]

Thanks for your answers. I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

larry

[billvon 2,400]

>best recommendation is do not buy a f111 main canopy. there is
> absoulutely no reason too. it is older technology and has no place
> as a primary construction material for main canopies any more.

F111 still seems to be the material of choice for serious demo canopies and accuracy canopies. There is an advantage to the steep approach you get from a more porous canopy.

[Zlew 0]

F-111 still has a place in the sport...but that place is REALLY small. For someone wanting to get sport gear who isn't into the Tuffett or major demos (i'd still go zp for most demos..) i'd say there is no real good reason to get F-111 anymore. It used to be good for new jumpers because there was TONS of used gear out there for cheap..but ZP has been around so long that you can get plenty of good ZP gear for not much $.

Z

[freeflir29 0]

I put 90 jumps on a PD-190 F-111 canopy loaded about 1.3. It had maybe 50 jumps on it when I got it. I used to do 270 hooks frequently and surf it fairly well. It still flew great when I transitioned to a Stiletto. That's my experience anyway.....I'm with the others that say..."Why buy F-111?" There are plenty of ZP canopies out there for sale that at most will need a $200 reline sometime in the future. Go ZP...

[johnny1488 1]

My first canopy was a PD210 loaded a little over 1:1. It flew ok and landed pretty crappy. I sold it to a girl for $50 less than I bought it for and she loved it. She was a lot lighter than me too. I would suggest it to a poor student who wanted to load it under 1:1 and wanted to save the $ for the next size down in zp. Easy to learn to pack on too. Not a bad choice for me for $400.

Johnny

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[bobsoutar 0]

Quote

Someone told me that you can't load an F-111 canopy more that 1:1 because the flare would be mushy or the canopy may collapse. Is this true?

No it's not. I used to jump an f111 canopy (a Wildfire) loaded at 1.3 for quite some time (about 250 jumps. Very glad I changed to ZP and certainly wouldn't recommend that your friend buys the PD.

[fudd 0]

Had a PD190. It was fun to fly, but impossible to land. (full porosity fabric)
I loaded it at about 1:1. According to the seller, it had 350 jumps, but he said he thought the previous owner probably had lied on the jumps because it didn't flare any good. Probably it has 600++

Maybe it will work at .9, will be carefull if I sell it to anyone.
Think it can be useful as a tent, sleeping bag or something simular to that...

Don't pay much for a f111 canopy today. You probably never be able to sell it again.

I got myself a new Hornet for 790 euro Can't wait to try it. (winter here)

There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

[rainman 0]

What are your thoughts on wingloading regarding mixed ZP/F111 canopies?

The reason I'm asking is that at 94 jumps I am loading my Merit 190 at 1:1 to 1:1.05 (depending on breakfast), and I am pretty sure that the Merit has a ZP topskin and a 'F111' bottomskin.

Am I taking more risks than I would on a similarly loaded fully ZP canopy, or is it 'merely' that my canopy will not last as long as a ZP canopy?

Rainman

[billvon 2,400]

>Am I taking more risks than I would on a similarly loaded fully ZP
> canopy, or is it 'merely' that my canopy will not last as long as a ZP
> canopy?

It all depends on canopy design. There have been HP canopies made of F111 (the excalibur) designed for higher loadings; some hybrid canopies (like the silhouette) are designed for lighter loadings. I don't know what the Merit is designed for.

[skydiverbob 0]

I jumped a Raven4 on saturday, DZ owned rig, that has about 500 jumps on it. I weigh about 200, so even with gear it was not overloaded. This thing had absolutely NO flare to it al all, and beleive me I tried. So, keep in mind the number of jumps on th canopy and loss of porosity, in addition to the wing loading.

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