Cypres saves another skydiver

[relyon 0]

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I asked Bill Booth why he didn't make the neat little CYPRES window like a Javelin has.... "To make sure people are checking the reserve pin. To many people don't do gear checks, and by making them open the flap they have to at least LOOK at the reserve pin." was his answer.

Huh. I thought the purpose of the windows is so other jumpers could see the CYPRES display and/or reserve pin, not a gear check substitute for the wearer.

I don't go around checking other people's gear unsolicited, but if I see a reserve pin and/or CYPRES problem because of a clear window, you can bet I'll tell the wearer. If I can't see them it's very unlikely I'll alert them.

Bob

[PhreeZone 20]

What window lets you see the reserve pin?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,918]

>Sometimes I think people simply look at my pin under the flap,
> without actually opening the pin cover completely. Once they see a
> small glimpse of my pin, they pat me on the shoulder stating that
> everything is OK!

I do this all the time. I open the flap far enough to be able to see the pin, the top of the closing loop and the bridle going (usually) under the top and bottom of the flap. If I can see all that, there is no need to open the pin cover and (temporarily) remove that level of protection.

[Vallerina 2]

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What window lets you see the reserve pin?

Our student gear did. Telesis, I believe. Smart idea!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[PhreeZone 20]

I've seen lots of student gear like that, I thik SDC has it like that on their rigs too, but have never seen it on a regular rig.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

To clarify:

The Javelin has a "window", (clear plastic) that is in the back pad of the container where the control head for the Cypres is installed. Once the jumper is wearing the rig, it is difficult to check the Cypres to see if it is turned on. Also, you can turn the Cypres on without opening the reserve flap.

On Vectors (VI, VII, VIII, and Micron's and M's) the Cypres control head is mounted under the reserve flap, at the top, near the yoke. The reserve flap must be opened in order to turn on the Cypres, exposing the reserve pin, and the Cypres control head can be checked when performing a reserve pin check. So it would be very difficult not to notice a reserve pin that was turned 180 degrees while spending the time to turn on the Cypres, (which we know was on).

Sigma tandem systems have a window for the Cypres control head on top of the yoke, then another window in the reserve flap making it possible to turn ont he Cypres and check the reserve pin without opening any flaps. The pre-flight for a Sigma is very simple and easy to accomplish.

Hook

[relyon 0]

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Sigma tandem systems have a window for the Cypres control head on top of the yoke, then another window in the reserve flap making it possible to turn ont he Cypres and check the reserve pin without opening any flaps.

This is what I'm referring to. I've seen both Javelins and Talon 2s similar setups as well. I don't know if the clear windows are standard, orderable, or custom.

Bob

[Hooknswoop 19]

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This is what I'm referring to.

Right, but Ron was refering to the clear "pouch" under the reserve flap that holds the Cypres control head. There was some confusion there.

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I've seen both Javelins and Talon 2s similar setups as well. I don't know if the clear windows are standard, orderable, or custom.

Standard on the Sigma and some student rigs. I don't know what other rigs you can order a clear reserve flap for.

Just to make sure, there are two different "windows". One is a "pouch" that the Cypres control head slides into and the other is clear lexan that replaces part or all of the reserve flap, making the reserve pin (and in some cases the Cypres control head) visable without having to open the reserve flap.

Hook

[relyon 0]

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Just to make sure, there are two different "windows". One is a "pouch" that the Cypres control head slides into and the other is clear lexan that replaces part or all of the reserve flap, making the reserve pin (and in some cases the Cypres control head) visable without having to open the reserve flap.

Yeah, I was thinking of the latter. Now that you mention it, I remember the pouch as well. Thanks for clarifying.

Bob

[Ron 10]

Yeah I asked Bill why he didn't have a clear window like the newer Jav's on the back so you don't have to open the flap to arm/check the CYPRES (The old ones you had to open the flap just like the Vectors).

He told me he wanted to make people open the reserve flap and check their gear, not just arm the CYPRES.

Like I said Bill is a very smart guy.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Craig 0]

I agree with Bill B. entirely. On the other hand why should you need to do such a thing just to get someone to check their pins. On their last resort at that! I have my contorl unit mounted in the backpad of my Mirage but that Never prevents me from opening the reserve flap after I turn on the CYPRES. Also I will untuck the lower part of the reserve flap (if you know Mirage's you know what I am saying) just to peek in and see that the reserve pin is seated on subsequent jumps that day. I guess a couple seconds to check these things every jump are too much trouble for some

[lippy 899]

On Reflexes (mine at least), the reserve pin and cypres control are on the 'inside' of the container, so that when it's on my back, the pin/control are against my back and aren't accessible by other jumpers without my taking the rig at least partially off. I like it this way, as I can check my pin, turn on my Cypres and I know all is well and out of harm's way. It's a very good setup IMHO. The only problem comes when somebody forgets/doesn't know the proper way to pin check, then they don't have the backup of their fellow jumper.

I got nuthin

[samp76 0]

Lisa,
It is a Vector II, (I double checked with the rigger), but it does not use Velcro it has tuck tab instead.(as Fudd mentioned). If it is rotated it is possible for the pin to get stuck inside of the tab.

Sam

Let go of the NUT!!

[freakydiver 0]

I don't post very often, but as I have progressed in my skydiving carrer, I am truthfully fearful more and more every year. Ten years ago when I began the sport obviously there were quite a few less people participating in the sport. Nowadays, I'll bet the numbers have doubled. Along with that, there are more and more people that make it through their AFF and get less attention. I see it every single weekend at the dz - people just do not pay respect to a sport that can and will eat you up alive if you dont pay attention. People are in a big hurry to make one more jump or they do not understand that sometimes there are 20 other people under canopy at the same time. The parachute opens and the blinders go on, the pack job gets done and the blinders go on. I personally have the same routine for every single jump and that includes a full pin check on the ground as well as prior to exiting. I may not look cool and complacent, but my nervousness keeps me safe. Complacency will eventually bite you in the rear. Like the other guy said, whats 10 extra seconds to do a gear check?

Blue Skies

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[kallend 1,935]

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I don't post very often, but as I have progressed in my skydiving carrer, I am truthfully fearful more and more every year. Ten years ago when I began the sport obviously there were quite a few less people participating in the sport. Nowadays, I'll bet the numbers have doubled. Along with that, there are more and more people that make it through their AFF and get less attention. I see it every single weekend at the dz - people just do not pay respect to a sport that can and will eat you up alive if you dont pay attention. People are in a big hurry to make one more jump or they do not understand that sometimes there are 20 other people under canopy at the same time. The parachute opens and the blinders go on, the pack job gets done and the blinders go on. I personally have the same routine for every single jump and that includes a full pin check on the ground as well as prior to exiting. I may not look cool and complacent, but my nervousness keeps me safe. Complacency will eventually bite you in the rear. Like the other guy said, whats 10 extra seconds to do a gear check?

Blue Skies

How do explain the decrease in fatality rate in the US during the last 10 years?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[samp76 0]

don't forget that the number of skydives and skydiver's have increased.

Let go of the NUT!!

[kallend 1,935]

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don't forget that the number of skydives and skydiver's have increased.

The point is that for all the wailing and gnashing of some old time skydiver's teeth about how the sport is going to the dogs, the hard data show that current skydivers are killing themselves at about half the rate they did 20 years ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freakydiver 0]

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don't forget that the number of skydives and skydiver's have increased.

The point is that for all the wailing and gnashing of some old time skydiver's teeth about how the sport is going to the dogs, the hard data show that current skydivers are killing themselves at about half the rate they did 20 years ago.

I am not trying to wail and "gnash". I simply made an observation with the intent of keeping my fellow mates as safe as possible. The point of a discussion forum is to get different viewpoints. Mine is no more or less important than the next. Just take away the important points from my post - look around under canopy and make too many gear checks. Of course the numbers are decreasing - take a statistics course. As the data set increases and add to this the advancements in safety training and equipment, of course there are going to be a smaller rate of safety incidents. The point is simply this, lets reduce that rate even more if at all possible. I'd like to jump with as many interesting people as I can - that is one of my favorite aspects of the sport - the myriad of different types/ages/backgrounds of its participants. I am not ranting and raving - I just would like to see one person read my post and say hey, he's right, I am pretty bad when it comes to looking around and being aware under canopy OR hey, maybe he's right, I could overdo it and do like six gear checks per jump. All I meant in my original post was that I noticed, and by no means am I any sort of authority on the subject, more and more unware canopy pilots and I thought that my observation might help an individual out. I would never have gotten as far as I have in the sport as safely as I have without people making observations of my own skill set. It is simply an attempt at a constructive observation. Also - I do not pretend to be an "old time skydiver" - I am still and will always be learning in the sport. I will never be nearly as good as I wish I could be. I can admit that.

Peece and Altitude

BTW - Rules and Etiquette

1) No personal attacks. None.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[kallend 1,935]

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I am not trying to wail and "gnash". I simply made an observation with the intent of keeping my fellow mates as safe as possible. The point of a discussion forum is to get different viewpoints. Mine is no more or less important than the next.

In general, I disagree. An informed opinion is more important than an uninformed one. Unless one has analyzed the accident data, an opinion on global accident rates is pretty meaningless. You have generalized your local observation to a global population of "people who have made through AFF...". Your observations may well be valid where you jump. However, no matter how you slice it, the fatal accident rate now is lower than it was when you started to jump.

According to USPA the "half life" of an active skydiver is about 3 years, so the population you see jumping now is mostly that which graduated within this time frame. You say you are becoming "truthfully fearful more and more every year", yet for whatever reason, jumpers now are killing themselves at a lower rate than your cohort did.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,384]

There was an interesting thread in rec.skydiving a few years ago, with some hard numbers on fatalities over the years, and some analysis of a real shift that seems to have taken place about 1981.

Here's a pointer: Rec.skydiving thread

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,935]

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There was an interesting thread in rec.skydiving a few years ago, with some hard numbers on fatalities over the years, and some analysis of a real shift that seems to have taken place about 1981.

Here's a pointer: Rec.skydiving thread

Wendy W.

USPA has far more data than they publish in their annual accident report. Anyone who's really interested might request it from them. (I got a copy of the spreadsheet some 2 years ago - however, I don't have permission to distribute it).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[freakydiver 0]

An informed opinion is more important than an uninformed one.

AGAIN - THE POINT OF A DISCUSSION FORUM is to share different vantage points. Where in hell do you get off saying that my opinion of what I SEE AND NOTICE at more than just ONE dropzone is uninformed? You don't even know me do you?? I visit perhaps 20 dropzones in a given year including yours.

Again, I'm just trying to help ONE FRIGGGIN person out by getting them to do a pin check one EXTRA time or SWIVEL THEIR HEADS around while under canopy. What is the harm in that? What is the harm in saying "hey, i just happen to notice that there are more and more canopy pilots out there that don't seem to be doing that".

You have no tact my friend:

"An informed opinion is more important than an uninformed one."

Yah man, I'm the uninformed one. I hate to get angry, but I am just trying to add to the benefit of this dicussion forum - you just waste peoples time by breaking the discussion down into micro-manageable pieces that no one could care about. I have NO beef with you other than the fact that you are beating on an issue that is simply brought up in order to help people out.

"Your observations may well be valid where you jump. However, no matter how you slice it, the fatal accident rate now is lower than it was when you started to jump."

NO DOUBT! I DO NOT DISAGREE!! BUT - ALL I AM TRYING TO GET ACROSS TO YOU is that I just happened to make the observation - at many a boogie and many a dropzone, that there SEEMS to be more and more people flying around with blinders on. I am not the end all say all of skydivers, I am no god, I don't have a crapload of jumps, I am not a master at any discipline. I just think that maybe, JUST MAYBE, I can help someone out that is willing to listen and that person will pass that knowledge along to another.

I remember my first few years in the sport - if I picked apart every damn suggestion an elder skydiver made to me to look for the holes, I would never have progressed as safely as I did. Those people care about safety and passing that information on.

"The total number of skydivers killed from 1963 through 1997 is 1226!!!! That's
a lot of our friends who aren't out there any more. There seems to be a new
trend in increased fatalities in recent years. What can we attribute this to?
Think about what you can do to help keep the numbers down.

And hey, let's be careful out there!!!!!

Jack Gregory"

If my comment gets one damn canopy pilot to turn his head more than the number of times he is doing it now - then amen, maybe he'll see you out of the corner of his eye before he jacks down his toggle and rams into you killing you both. Just a thought to ponder.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[billvon 2,918]

>an opinion on global accident rates is pretty meaningless.

I would disagree. I get good info from new jumpers, and they're not supposed to know anything. But they do have a different view, and it's important to understand that view if you want to discuss the issue intelligently.

[kallend 1,935]

You seem to have a hard time differentiating disagreement from personal attack. I am not attacking you. I'm disagreeing with your premise that skydivers now aren't as safety conscious as they were ten or twenty years ago.

I think it quite laudable that you encourage people to be air-aware under canopy. I lost two team-mates to a canopy collision; I'm quite sensitive to the issue.

And there's no need to shout.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,935]

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>an opinion on global accident rates is pretty meaningless.

I would disagree. I get good info from new jumpers, and they're not supposed to know anything. But they do have a different view, and it's important to understand that view if you want to discuss the issue intelligently.

Selective snipping there, Bill.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.