samp76 0 #1 January 9, 2003 A Cypres saved a fellow skydiver today. All 4 exited @ 9500 after completing a 4 way broke off and tracked away. One had a PC in tow, he tried pulling his reserve and could not deploy it. around 700 Cypres fired and he had just enough time to release the brake and turn into the wind(4-5 secs). The PC in tow was due to the bride being bunched up next to the pin. The reserve malfunction was due to the pin being turn around. This could have been prevented by a simple gear check before loading up. The only thing he can think of why his pin was turn around was that airport security looked at the reserve and must have moved it. Sorry no pics. The rig is a Vector II. Just check you gear people!!Let go of the NUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 16 #2 January 9, 2003 Pin turned around? As in the reserve cable had a kink?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #3 January 9, 2003 QuoteThe reserve malfunction was due to the pin being turn around. What exactly do you mean by this? I just don't get the pin being turned around. Anyone? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samp76 0 #4 January 9, 2003 Picture turning the reserve pin 180 degrees, instead of being pointed at 12 o'clock it was pointed at 6 o'clock, so now when he pulled the reserve handle the pin would not rotate back around so that it could slide out. He pulled it so hard that it started to kink the cable right where the pin connects to it.Let go of the NUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #5 January 9, 2003 QuoteThe only thing he can think of why his pin was turn around was that airport security looked at the reserve and must have moved it. This is a reasonably serious accusation. Was it checked or carry-on? Was he there when the looked at it? What airline and airport? Unless there is some evidence, this seems like it might be a case of hearing hoofbeats and expecting zebras... _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 0 #6 January 9, 2003 If the cypres fired how do you know the pin was rotated 180 degrees, wouldn't it be hard to tell this after the closing loop is cut and reserve open? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samp76 0 #7 January 9, 2003 It was carried on, as for airline I do not know. The biggest thing I am trying to get across is the importance of a gear check. Both malfunctions could have been prevented. When I see him again it will be a few months but I can ask him. We here in Indiana only get a few lucky days during the winter to jump today only happened to be one of them. 55 degrees and 10-15 mph winds at ground level 50-60 mph winds at 6000. A fun day to land in a corn field. Let go of the NUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samp76 0 #8 January 9, 2003 The rigger and the DZO (same person) looked at the reserve cable and by simulating the pin turned 180 was the only way to put the kink in the reserve cable. We simulated it and we could not pull the pin out. This is the only was that he could tell that this happened.Let go of the NUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #9 January 9, 2003 I happen to have a Vector II here, so I checked to see if I could rotate the pin 180 degrees. I could - see pic v2pin001. And the top flap covered it up pretty well - see pic v2pin002. I could then easily rotate the pin back around to where it was supposed to be - a 360 degree rotation. Note that this is on a V8 with about a 19" MLW. Don't know the length of the reserve ripcord, nor do I know if the ripcord is the one that came with the container when it was new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #10 January 9, 2003 How many jumps did this jumper have? If he got into the aircraft with his pin turned around like in Skybytch's photo I have to say there's no excuse for that. Is it conceivable that it got moved around in the aircraft? I'm assuming it was a Cessna jump because it was a 4-way from 9.5. I think that it could have happened while getting ready or on exit, depending on exit position and formation being launched.Makes me appreciate Wendy Faulkner's recent comments in the CRW forum about using Racers for CRW. She still uses Racers because she feels her pins are better protected despite the snag potential of a Racer while banging canopies. Her reasons are that she has seen one pins get bent or have premature launches. There's always grey area when it comes to our gear choices isn't there? Glad your friend is ok.-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #11 January 9, 2003 Quote...still uses Racers because she feels her pins are better protected... And the Pull-Out is a fool proof deployment method too; none of these "bridle" routing issues! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DZBone 0 #12 January 9, 2003 OK, now I'm going to make a serious/paranoid accusation. Any chance his gear was sabotaged? Someone twists the reserve pin and tangles up the bridle... Of course, if they knew enough to do that, they would know to turn off the AAD. Any chance he happened to notice his AAD was off? (shifty eyes) _________________________________________________ If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 January 9, 2003 QuoteAny chance his gear was sabotaged? Someone twists the reserve pin and tangles up the bridle... Of course, if they knew enough to do that, they would know to turn off the AAD. Any chance he happened to notice his AAD was off? If he didn't notice his reserve pin, he sure didn't notice his cypres control head, which is 5 inches above the reserve pin on Vector II's. We know he did turn his Cypres on, it would be very difficult not to notice a cock-eyed reserve pin. Maybe it got turned in the plane or on climb-out? Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samp76 0 #14 January 9, 2003 Lisa, After seeing your pictures of your reserve pin and flap I might have been told wrong about the rig. I sent an e-mail to the DZO to ask again what type it is. But I can tell by the pictures that it is NOT a Vector II. There is a little pocket an or less on the reserve flap. I have to try to get picture. I have to go out of town on business but when I get back I will make sure the story is right. SamLet go of the NUT!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #15 January 9, 2003 But how did this guy Arm his CYPRES and not see a 180 deg turn in his pin? To arm a CYPRES on a Vector you have to open the reserve flap....I asked Bill Booth why he didn't make the neat little CYPRES window like a Javelin has.... "To make sure people are checking the reserve pin. To many people don't do gear checks, and by making them open the flap they have to at least LOOK at the reserve pin." was his answer. A damn smart guy. After looking at the pictures that Skybtch posted I think this rig might not have been a Vector, or this guy is blind. Check your damn gear! Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #16 January 9, 2003 I believe the picture is of a Vector I (correct me if I'm wrong). It's almost the same reserve pin setup, but the Vector II has tuck tabs on the reserve flap instead of velcro. A Vector II also has an opening that the pin enters so that the pin cant be turned like that unless the end of the pin is out of the little pocket. Don't know if the vI has it. I'm suprised the jumper didn't catch it when he turned on the cypres. Was this the first jump of the day? What strikes me is that it almost sounds like somebody had looked at this rigg and tried to figure out how it works. (Pull out the pc. See how the main pin is attached to the bridle. Look at the reserve pin. Lifting it up a little and turning it to see better. You're right, this could have been prevented with a simple gear check. Happy to hear the jumper made it safe to the ground. There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 16 #17 January 9, 2003 Those Pics are of a Vector2, the Velcro was the only option on the early ones.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeffGordon 0 #18 January 9, 2003 Unless he was using an Astra instead of a CYPRES. Are you sure he was using a CYPRES? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird 0 #19 January 9, 2003 bunched up bridle byy the reserve pin?*** Can anyone get a pic. of this mal. Even though I always check my gear list (still yes I have a piece of paper that reminds me to check it all, even though I know what to check . It does not hurt to have the list which I printed from the safety section of this forum)) I check my pins three times. I will make sure the person I jump with knows how to check my pins on the plane. Its important to show others on the ground what to look for if they are jumping different gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petur 0 #20 January 9, 2003 Thank's for the photos... I must add that I find it very difficult to believe that the reserve pin can be rotated 180° accidentally by hitting something. Agree? But whatever the reason for the pin being turned around, as posted earlier, it could have been easily prevented by a proper pincheck!--- P. "It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes - But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #21 January 9, 2003 QuoteI must add that I find it very difficult to believe that the reserve pin can be rotated 180° accidentally by hitting something. Agree? It isn't easy, but watch people with their rigs on. They open otter, caravan, king air, etc., doors, scrapping their rigs as they go, they sit heavily back on them, the back into things, turn while back into things, scrape their rigs on climb-out, move from the last bench seat to the floor as if they were TRYING to pop their reserve pin, etc, etc, etc. I agree that it would be difficult, but the way I see people treat their rigs, not impossible. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird 0 #22 January 9, 2003 could have been easily prevented by a proper pincheck! *** Yes and the checker needs to be trusted totally. I want tthe person that checks my pin to know how the Javelin works and if they don't I will show them what to check before we go up. Very easy and if someone thinks Im being too ridiculous about a pin check( which happened once. ) they can jump with someone else. If Im solo ( which I hardly ever am) I will find a jumper to check my pin that I trust. Its not about hurting feelings or putting someone out that does not feel like getting up to check your pin. Its up to us to ensure our safety. The people I jump with now check everything on the plane chest strap, rings, legs, helmet, pins, alt. I asked someone to do a pin check at 8000 feet ( we were jumping at 13,500. They said " we already did that on the ground" in a way that he was bothered. I never jumped with that person again. --- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird 0 #23 January 9, 2003 I hate it when someone asks me to lean all the way back on the plane . Im happy hunching over. I want to protect my pins and its not comfy on a jump plane anyway you look at it.Hunching over is what Im used to itsthe norm for me and I do not want to lean back. It does not mean that Im nervous, it just means I like my pins to be as far away from any friction as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petur 0 #24 January 9, 2003 Quote Yes and the checker needs to be trusted totally. True! I'm sure that some of my co-jumpers (which most aren't very current) would probably not even notice if I had the bridle mis-routed. Sometimes I think people simply look at my pin under the flap, without actually opening the pin cover completely. Once they see a small glimpse of my pin, they pat me on the shoulder stating that everything is OK! Quote Its not about hurting feelings or putting someone out that does not feel like getting up to check your pin. I can tolerate an annoyed co-jumper and hopefully cheer him up if I hurt his/her feelings in any way, but I have zero-tolerance for premature deployments and PC's in tow...--- P. "It Hurts to Admit When You Make Mistakes - But When They're Big Enough, the Pain Only Lasts a Second." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freebird 0 #25 January 9, 2003 When I just got off student status back in 2001, I was doing a two-way with an experienced jumper. He asked someone else to check his pin. I let him check my pin. I knew he knew I was a novice just off student status. No biggie.( I still knew how to check pins though) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
