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Hooknswoop

Seat Belts

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I'm wondering how you are getting 6 anyways since the weight and balence with 5 normal jumpers can't usually afford the weight for 6 unless you have a 206 turbo or something. We have a 206 finally at the DZ and we have 5 with belts and everyone faces the tail, lots of leg room. If you are pushing the weight and balence limits just for the sake of one jumper or that small amount of money, I probally would'nt get on the plane anyways.

The floor of our Cessna has the cargo rails and the sie wall has the cargo tie down rails that were originally installed in the plane before it was a jump plane. Its really simple to install the belts, basically you just slide a nut in the end of the rail and slide it to where you want the belt then the end of the belt has a screw on it that screws into the nut. Tighten to required tightness and your done, do it on the other half of the belt and 5 minutes later you have a seatbelt.

I've seen a Cessna 182 thats got enough belts for 6 people installed, what they have you do is sit in the position for best balence and belt your self in then.

Added trouble? its 5 seconds to strap in and 2 to unbelt.

Look at the buckle on the pilots seat to see one of the many buckle designs in use today, (Think commercial airline belt and the stewardess doing the demo of lifting to release and how to tighten it)
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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>Yes, if you cannot skydive safely, you don't jump. Even if everyone else is doing it.

There are many other safety features that could be made mandatory, ones that would make jumping safer, but it's not going to happen because the jumpers don't want it. It all depends on one's definition of "safely", and the risk one is willing to take. "Whuffo your jump-plane has no seatbelts?"

>The impact of everyone refusing to jump without seatbelts
>would be very noticeable.

It's easy to say when you have a choice. You actually expect a whole club of skydivers to suddenly stop jumping(not switching DZs, but quitting) until seatbelts are installed? Really?

Try to see it from our perspective. Seatbelts are an additional safety feature, one that has never been used in small jump-planes during the history of skydiving in my country. Also bear in mind that there are no commercial DZs here, only clubs. Only when majority of the jumpers wanted the seatbelts, they would be installed. We can't financially pressure a DZO into installing seatbelts.

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>There are many other safety features that could be made
> mandatory, ones that would make jumping safer, but it's not going
> to happen because the jumpers don't want it.

I agree. If you don't want seatbelts, don't use them. If you do want them, get them - don't use "Oh, it's so hard to do!" as an excuse. It's not hard and it's done all the time.

>It's easy to say when you have a choice. You actually expect a whole
> club of skydivers to suddenly stop jumping(not switching DZs, but
> quitting) until seatbelts are installed? Really?

No, switching DZ's would have the same effect.

>Only when majority of the jumpers wanted the seatbelts, they would
>be installed.

Again, I agree. I hope it will not take the deaths of dozens of skydivers before you decide that you want them, as it did here.

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>To clarify: We have 1+6 . .

Yep, we have 1+5.

>So basically, adding seatbelts would mean more expensive jump
>tickets and the added trouble of wearing the belts...

Yep, although it's all what you're used to, and what you want. No one in the US sees it as additional trouble, really - it's just a force of habit, as troublesome as a gear check.

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>I'm wondering how you are getting 6 anyways since the weight and
>balence with 5 normal jumpers can't usually afford the weight for 6
>unless you have a 206 turbo or something.

I haven't looked into the weight issue that closely, but manifest-list we give the pilot always includes the total weight of the load. Our chief-pilot(who works for the local aviation administration) doesn't have a problem with the weight limits, so I'm assuming we're going by the book.

>basically you just slide a nut in the end of the rail and slide it to
>where you want the belt then the end (...)

Does the belt make a loop to a single attachment point? I mean, are both halves of the seatbelt attached to the same point? That's the only way I can imagine a solution that would actually hold a jumper.

>Added trouble? its 5 seconds to strap in and 2 to unbelt.

It's not the true added trouble, it's the perceived(=imagined) trouble that would keep people from wanting them.

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To clarify: We have 1+6, that's the pilot plus 6 jumpers(5 jumpers only in the case the weight limits would be exceeded by adding a 6th).



Same as in America, except that sixth jumper ALWAYS puts us over weight limits. Americans, are fat, remember? :P

Seriously, this is the same reason we only put 9 or 10 in our Porter. 10 is WAY too tight! I don't see how you guys can put 11! Do ya just throw somebody up over top everybody else? :D

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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Best I've found on a C206 with the seats removed you have about 1560 pounds till you reach max limit. Thats got to include the fuel, passengers, rigs, pilot... everything, plus the reserve fuel. At 8 pounds per gallon and say half full tanks thats 44 gallons or 352 lbs, then figure a few more gallons as reserve so your fuel is 400lbs. Down to 1160 pounds for 7 people, evenly divided thats an average of 165 pounds per jumper with gear. Granted.. less fuel allows more take off.

I was honestly surprized the first time I did the math on the weight in our 206 and saw we only had about 220 to spare when we had 5 jumpers and a pilot.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Seriously, this is the same reason we only put 9 or 10 in our Porter. 10 is WAY too tight! I don't see how you guys can put 11! Do ya just throw somebody up over top everybody else? :D



As a matter of fact, yes. I once got to the plane last and thought I would just have to hang on the wing strut on the ride up. Then I somehow got in all over everyone else, and the pilot started asking about a guy who was also on the load list, but didn't show up. That's when everyone started yelling at him, so he just closed the door and took us up. Needless to say, I was first one out.

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I think everyone has answered the questions so I will not go on about it.

I flew C-206s. The seat belts were no trouble and easy to get in and out of. No, I do not have technical drawings on how they are attached in the plane. Cessna in Whichita, KS should be able to help you. They've provided technical data for years. There are plenty of DZ's in the US that run 206s with belts that might be able to help you. I do not have the info handy since we don't run 206s at my home DZ.

The 206s I flew were set up for pilot plus 6 jumpers and was NOT over weight. I fueled for 3 loads plus reserve. I'm a skinny ass pilot so maybe other fat boys would put you over the limit. You'll have to see for yourself. But that might be an hiring point between two pilots with the same qualifications. Which one is lighter would be more advantagious.......
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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Does anyone wear seatbelts in a c182?



Absolutely! The DZ I spend most of my time at now has a 205 and a 172 with plenty of belts in each.

I am not a tiny guy by any means and I have no problems putting a seat belt on in either plane.

Kris
Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

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I've done all my jumping in South Africa where, as has been clear, we have never had seatbelts in our jump planes. This whole thread has been very enlightening.

But I did one jump in the US from a Grand Caravan, and I got quite a good briefing, I thought. They told me all about the area, the beer line, where the farmer will have you arrested if you land, the whole toot.

But not once, even though they knew I was a foreign jumper, were seatbelts mentioned. So US jumpers take note - that's something extra to add to your briefings of visitors.

Oh, and I didn't see anybody else strap in on that load either.

Pam

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Circa 1990, Hooker Harness TSOed a set of seat belts specifically designed for skydivers. It is a shorter version of regular seatbelts and is designed to slip around the hip joint on parachute harnesses.
Circa 1996 Sandy Reid took a bunch of skydiving harnesses and tested them with Hooker skydiving seatbelts on the FAA crash simulation sled. The worst damage on any harness was a few popped stitches in the hip joints or where the lateral strap disappears behind the back pad.
After reviewing the video tapes, we concluded that most of the test dummies would have survived with sore necks. It did not matter much whether they were anchored at one hip or both hips.
In a Twin Otter crash, the guys in the back should strap in for the benefit of the guys in the front.

Seatbelts built specifically for skydivers are readily available. Any Master Rigger could sew them, but only Jack Hooker can supply seatbelts with the expensive TSO paperwork. The only reason they are not more widely used is the high cost of installing extra anchors to suit skydiving seating arrangements.

It is stupid to not wear a helmet during take off and the first thousand feet of climb. The only exception should be photographers who should have some kind of strap with a carbiner to prevent their helmets form killing the guys in the front of the airplane. Strapping in helmets became mandatory at several SoCal DZs after the Perris crash in 1992.

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Wear your seatbelt.
Wear your helmet during takeoff (strapping it on your chest strap may prevent it from becoming a projectile, but would be like jumping on a rock chest first in the event of an emergency landing).
Please make sure everyone's seatbelt is off before you fling open the door to cool off. B|

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Please make sure everyone's seatbelt is off before you fling open the door to cool off.



Good point. That makes me more nervous than not having a seat belt would. The thought of someone having a deployment out the door while they still have their belt on. Remember to make sure all belts are off before opening the door.

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