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Hooknswoop

Seat Belts

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>You know, I really hope Jerry is joking or trolling . . .

I doubt it. When I started jumping no one wore seat belts. "They're unsafe! You can't exit quickly. They're just there so the feds can see em. Do you want to be trapped in a burning plane blah blah . . ." It took some very deadly crashes before people started wearing them regularly, and some places still don't.

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>even though 2000 pounds applied on the small surface a seat belt
>covers sounds quite unpleasant, too. [/edit]

It is unpleasant; people come into the ER all the time with very nasty bruising and even broken bones from the seatbelt. It's just that it is much preferable to the alternative.

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It took some very deadly crashes before people started wearing them regularly, and some places still don't.



1992 Perris, CA DHC-6 crash. 16 Fatal 6 Serious.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X14468&key=1

1992 Hinckley, IL Beech C-45 crash. 12 Fatal.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X15678&key=1
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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I think you're talking about two different things here. Two different types of aircraft to be exact.

There's no doubt about the fact that you have to wear seatbelts in an Otter and other similar sized jump planes.

Small Cessnas can be completely different. AFAIK(any Finn with knowledge to the contrary, please let me know) not a single Cessna(jump-plane) in Finland has seatbelts for jumpers. I've only jumped from about 4 or 5 of them though. The way the six people are packed to the C206 on my DZ, I don't think there is a practical way of installing seatbelts. There isn't enough room to even move. The "single-mass principle" is used as the emergency procedure: everyone is supposed to sqeeze as close to the front of the aircraft as possible.

If someone has info on installing seatbelts for jumpers in a 206, please post the details, I'd be interested to see how it could be done.

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Erno, all the 'Non European' ;) Cessnas I've jumped have been fitted with seat belts. The only way to get comfy is not to fasten them as if you were in a car, but hook them thru a piece of harness, as mentioned earlier......Although I do agree with teh single mass priciple you discuss, but the fitting of restraints is an FAA thing I believe.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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The rules here in Finland state that a jump plane that holds more than 10 jumpers must have seatbelts.

You can get a "type-certificate"(? direct translation of the finnish term) for a smaller plane to transport jumpers without seats or seatbelts.

There's a sign in the back of our Cessna saying "OH-CWW has no seatbelts for the jumpers aboard. The jumpers are on board at their own risk", or something to that effect(in Finnish), followed by the appropriate regulation number.

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The rules here in Finland state that a jump plane that holds more than 10 jumpers must have seatbelts.

You can get a "type-certificate"(? direct translation of the finnish term) for a smaller plane to transport jumpers without seats or seatbelts.

There's a sign in the back of our Cessna saying "OH-CWW has no seatbelts for the jumpers aboard. The jumpers are on board at their own risk", or something to that effect(in Finnish), followed by the appropriate regulation number.



You assume that everyone is going to stay on the floor during a crash. Also, in a C-182 your pilot will have to deal with the people behind him pressing on the back of his seat thus reducing any last remaining control he might have during a crash sequence.

Are you people with no seatbelts so tall that you sit on the floor and your head hits the ceiling? I don't think so. So your "one mass" theory doesn't work. If you get a vertical acceleration then you all will become a jumbled mess on the ceiling bouncing from ceiling to floor. After that, you are all unrestrained and will receive fatal injuries due to turning around in the plane.

I have taken many classes on accident investigation and seen too many accident photos with mangled bodies (not just jump plane crashes only). You folks who want to believe in this fairy tale "one mass" theory are asking for death. And last check planes do crash in Europe just like the US. Don't wait for the regulation to tell you to wear a restraint. Do it now. On your own. Set an example. There is no difference between a large (otter) jump plane and a small (c-182) jump plane needing seat belts during an accident.

"We don't need seat belts for every take off or landing. We just need them for that ONE take off or landing." And I've personally been through that "ONE" a few times. Listen to me. Get the seat belts. Install them. USE THEM!
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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So what about if your plane doesn't have them fitted? :)



I say don't jump that plane then. It may sound extreme but what is your life worth? I don't think things will change over night in other countries with no seat belts. But facts are facts. Seat belts increase your chances of survival in an airplane crash. And the whole "Well what if the planes on fire and the seat belt hinders me from getting out?" Well, what do you think caused that fire to start with? Maybe a high G impact force? So now without a seatbelt you died before the fire started. Might be a consolation but I'd much rather have a chance than none at all without a seat belt and a seat belt for everyone around me.

It's going to take a grass roots effort and some real opinion changing to get Europe to change. But really, it's for your own safety. I say, make it happen.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

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Also, in a C-182 your pilot will have to deal with the people behind him pressing on the back

Why isn't it the same in a 206? I know we usually have two jumpers sitting behind the pilot.

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Are you people with no seatbelts so tall that you sit on the floor and your head hits the ceiling? I don't think so. So your "one mass" theory doesn't work.



I don't think it's meant to be a replacement for seatbelts. I think it's more like "it's not going to help you much, but you'll feel better if you're doing something"

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And last check planes do crash in Europe just like the US. Don't wait for the regulation to tell you to wear a restraint. Do it now. On your own. Set an example.



That's why my first post included this::)
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If someone has info on installing seatbelts for jumpers in a 206, please post the details, I'd be interested to see how it could be done.

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Well, in a Pilatus Porter, your head actually does touch the ceiling. Especially when your sitting on somebody's knees and leaning on someone else's back:|.
The only thing I really want to believe about the single-mass procedure is that it might increase chances of survival in an airplane that's not equipped with seatbelts.
And btw, thanks for the very graphical feedback, Diverdriver. Even though I've already decided to wear a belt next time I go up.

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Ok, just my 2c worth. At my home dz we use a C182, NO seatbelts. At the other dz I'm a regular at there's two C206's, NO seatbelts. These are the only planes that we use for skydiving.

I don't want to sound stupid, but DD, you suggest I don't jump them. Then I have to quit skydiving because our planes don't have seatbelts?:S[:/]

I'm not in anyway trying to be difficult, but what do you suggest I do?


Gene Police: "YOU!! Out of the pool, NOW!!!"

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"Well what if the planes on fire and the seat belt hinders me from getting out?"
Another great reason to carry a hook knife!
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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I usually jump from a Cessna Grand Caravan (could that be C208B?), which has the one-point attachments with a quick-release like the release on an RSL if you know what I mean. We are all sitting on the floor with our backs towards the propellor.

Everyone on board is supposed to use these 'seat-belts' and I usually do use them, but I have serious doubts whether they will hold you in even a hard landing.... Apart from that they do obviously provide quite a lot of mobility which is not what you want in case of a crash.
Rainman

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If there's a belt, I'll be wearing it until 1500 at least, but if there's not, I'd still jump



If enough jumpers feel the way you do, seat belts willnot be installed. If enough jumpers decide that they will not get in a jump ship without seat belts, the seat belts will be installed.

I would recommend gathering as much information on seat belts as possible, including cost of parts and installation (talk to DiverDriver and an A & P). Get as many skydivers educated and "on-board" with the idea that seat belts are a very good idea and they really must be installed. Then present this information to the DZO with either a petetion or as many skydivers with you as possible. It's not going to be easy, but if the belts get installed it will be worth it.

Hook

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>The way the six people are packed to the C206 on my DZ, I don't
> think there is a practical way of installing seatbelts.

Lots of US 206's have seatbelts; both the 206's we had at Otay had seatbelts for all 5 passengers. You may have to get rid of one of the passengers and/or take more time loading, but it is certainly doable.

>There isn't enough room to even move.

After an accident with a 182 in New York, three bodies were squeezed into the space that the pilot used to occupy. There is, unfortunately, plenty of room to move after your long bones break.

>The "single-mass principle" is used as the emergency procedure:
> everyone is supposed to sqeeze as close to the front of the aircraft
> as possible.

Well, that _is_ exactly what happens after a crash, unfortunately, the people are generally dead after they get compacted that much. In the above mentioned crash, the only people who were relatively uninjured were in the back, belted in.

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>I don't want to sound stupid, but DD, you suggest I don't jump
> them. Then I have to quit skydiving because our planes don't have
> seatbelts?

"I can't afford a good reserve. You really expect me to quit skydiving?"

"We can't afford student rigs with squares, or altimeters for our students. What, you want me to close the DZ?"

"Sure, our pilot is just a private pilot, and the plane doesn't get 100 hour inspections, and the mixture doesn't work, but what do you expect me to do?"

"Well, duh. We can't see the ground. If we waited for the clouds to clear we'd never jump."

I've actually heard all the above. Yes, if you cannot skydive safely, you don't jump. Even if everyone else is doing it. That might mean you have to drive 8 hours to get to a safer DZ, or save up for years to get a safe rig, or might even mean never jumping at all.

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Ok,ok, I got the point, hold the graphic explanations...

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Lots of US 206's have seatbelts; both the 206's we had at Otay had seatbelts for all 5 passengers. You may have to get rid of one of the passengers and/or take more time loading, but it is certainly doable.



To clarify: We have 1+6, that's the pilot plus 6 jumpers(5 jumpers only in the case the weight limits would be exceeded by adding a 6th). You're saying that with seatbelts it's practical to have only 5 jumpers onboard? So basically, adding seatbelts would mean more expensive jump tickets and the added trouble of wearing the belts... It's not going to happen I'm afraid. Most of the jumpers will not have them. Until it's mandated after the first crash of a jump-plane, of course.[:/]

So how are the seatbelts installed? Anchored from a single point to the floor? A regular seatbelt buckle?

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