PUD vs. PULLOUT

[JACKO 0]

HELLO
I'm about ready to buy a rig, but stalling because I can not figure out whether to install a BOC throw out or Pull out system for PC deployment. I am soliciting advice from any who have a good opinion on this subject. I'm not worried about resale value (an argument to get BOC), I just want the safest possible rig all around.
The more opinions I can get on this the better. Straight statistics are nice too. Whatever you can do to help me I would appreciate.
JACK

[grasshopper 0]

double posting this question, shame on you. go back to ripcord. I hear they are the most fun to pack.
bad skydiver, no donut

[Cacophony 0]

I have no experience jumping a pull out but I have heard a few things. I have heard both good and bad things. The one good thing is that its impossible to have a PC in tow because the container is opened to allow the PC into the airstream. Thats just one good point. I'm sure others will like to add on to this. For the record, I am fine with my BOC.
Safe landings,
Alex C-30872

[skybytch 259]

Pull out requires a more "positive" pull and toss than a throw out. Throw it too easy and you may find yourself with a floating pud; sometimes grabbing and throwing bridle will clear this, other times it's a reserve ride. More care must be taken when packing; a slight misrouting of the bridle could create an impossible pull.
Can you get ahold of a rig with a pullout and go jump it before you buy anything? I think one jump on one will tell you if you like it or not. Have you already transitioned from ripcord to throw out? If you are already on a throw out I'd recommend staying with it. Changing deployment methods often when you are still new to skydiving is not a good idea.
pull and flare,
lisa

[riggerrob 558]

Last year my old buddy TK Donle from the Relative Workshop posted an excellent opinion on the Pull-Out vs. Throw-Out arguement. TK reminded us that the most important thing is to throw your pilot chute out to full arm's extension to get it clear of your burble. TK said that the worst thing about a pull-out is that you waste half your strength just pulling the pin, consequently you don't have much strength left to extend your arm.
Personally, out of 3300 jumps I have only made about a dozen with pull-outs, no problems, but I really have little experience. I made my first decsion on that issue when i purchased my first rig in 1979 with a belly-band mounted throw-out. In the early 1980s my decision was confirmed when we converted to throw-outs for all the students. Since then I have become a Master Rigger, etc, but still have not doubted my initial decision. On the other hand I have repacked a disproportionately large number of reserves after guys tired of searching for floating pull-outs.
One last thought: when I worked at Rigging Innovations, only about 5% of production had pull-outs.

[DBTECH 0]

Post from Dave Brownell:
The following is a series of letters regarding pull-out pilot chutes.
Hello TK: (at the Relative Workshop)
I don't know what your opinion is about pullout pilot chutes, but here is mine, in response to a question regarding rig conversion.
I, personally, am against pull out's. (20+ years, jumper, pilot, rigger) As predicted, I have seen (watched) two near fatalities as the result of pullouts. Both were main-reserve entanglements. In both cases the PC's were held long enough to allow the bridle to half hitch around the pilot chute causing a PC malfunction. When I say long enough, I mean as short as maybe one half second or less! This may not seam very long, but consider the action/speed of the bridle being out next to the inflated PC. (perceived malfunction rate?)
With a hand deploy PC you are holding the apex of the PC. There is only a horseshoe starting at your hand, and ending at the closing flap. When you release the PC the total horseshoe remains taught until pilot chute inflation. I have held on to my hand deploy for five seconds on several jumps with no problem. Would you want to do that with a pullout?
As far as concern about the pin not being pulled? A 28" pilot chute has at least 80 lbs. of drag at 120 MPH. What's the likely hood of a misrouted bridle on a late-model rig?
But the way, in both cases of near fatalities, both jumpers pulled their reserves around 1000 feet. In both cases there were entanglements with the main-bag that deployed at reserve pull. They both got reserve openings below 300 feet! On one, "garbage of the main" was pushed down to the jumper by the reserve slider, blinding the jumper! Sounds like fun time, HA! (bonus days included) I was witness to both of these jumps!
Dave Brownell
Mesa/Eloy AZ
Dave,
I'm with you on all counts. Here's a fact or two you can add to your list.
We've done a lot of tests to determine the strength of the average jumper in the pull-out configuration. The strongest guys in our shop were not half as strong as the drag of a standard hand-deploy pilot chute. No contest there.
In an ideal world, a hand-deploy is always thrown, and should not be held onto unless you discover someone over your back at that very moment. But when you must hold it, the worst that can happen is that the drag on the bridle pulls the pin. (which is what you get on every pull-out deployment!) If you're stable, the bagged canopy will stay on your back. (Dave, all of the maladies you mention are absolutely true.)
With a pull-out pilot chute, you don't get the great, aggressive throw capability of the hand-deploy because you loose ½ of the throwing stroke just trying to pull the pin out of the locking loop. Without a good throw, the pilot chute could end up on your back in the burble. I personally have about 300 jumps on a pull-out system and on many of these jumps, I experienced pilot chute hesitations. I went back to hand-deploy and have not had a hesitation since.
Dave, you're absolutely correct when it comes to two canopy entanglements. Here's how the scenario goes: They pull the handle and pin and then let go of the PC. The burble sucks the PC onto their back. They fail to look over their shoulder hard enough so the PC stays there. Eventually, and usually quite low, they decide to pull the reserve. Both canopies will usually deploy one after the other.
And here's another problem. Most jumpers with pull-out systems loose their handle at least once during their career. Some don't ever find it on that given jump and end up pulling their reserve. Some don't pull anything. Before the days of AAD's, a significant number of jumpers bounced, Jeannie McCombs being one of the notables.
I'm sure I could go on an on about the virtues of H/D over P/O. But life is short and so is the list of jumpers using the PULL-OUT System.
Talk to you later,
TK

[miked10270 0]

Hi Jacko,
Well, Dave & Rob have just about covered it... BOC Hand Deploy IS the way to go. In the 1980's Pullout had advantages over the other deployment choices, namely hand deploy from belly-band (thankfully long since banned) and ROL (rear of legstrap). Both required the bridle to be routed from container to pocket with quite a bit of velcro (which wore through time.
In the 1990's, better spandex for the pocket (and a bit of "eureka" moved the hand deploy to the bottom of the container and we finally had a deployment system which gave us all the advantages of both pull-out & hand deploy with none of the disadvantages (unless you count not being able to actually see the deployment handle when you reach for it).
I suspect that the "5%" of new rigs still sold with pullout are to skydivers who have jumped pullout for years & don't want to change deployment device at this stage in ther carreers. I also suspect that when their rig changes hands it's not long before it's converted to BOC H/D.
Mike D10270.

[mikeat10500 9]

RE:Deployment systems
Witty answer(not to be taking seriously)

Ripcrods are for reserves,
Toss outs are for students and girls,
But real men jump pull-outs!

The truth is both systems can be safe...the key
word is can be. Changing deployment types is very
serious stuff! Try before you buy!

Quote

HELLO

I'm about ready to buy a rig, but stalling because I can not figure out whether to install a BOC throw out or Pull out system for PC deployment. I am soliciting advice from any who have a good opinion on this subject. I'm not worried about resale value (an argument to get BOC), I just want the safest possible rig all around.

The more opinions I can get on this the better. Straight statistics are nice too. Whatever you can do to help me I would appreciate.

JACK

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[jceman 1]

Mike,

Why are making this reply to the original post?

Look at the date of the request; I do believe that the issue was settled long ago to Jacko's satisfaction.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[rmsmith 1]

Quote

Before the days of AAD's, a significant number of jumpers bounced, Jeannie McCombs being one of the notables.

I still miss Jeannie. I was stunned when I heard that she had passed away. There were plenty of California boogies where the first sign of her was that Jaguar in the parking lot. I had a reserve ride one windy day under a SAC-22, and it was a long walk back to the DZ, but Jeanie followed me down none the less, and we made the trek together. An outstanding Lady!

[mikeat10500 9]

Sorry man...I'm new to the forum and completely missed the date thing. I was trying to say there are still some people that prefer pull-outs but now I realize that even the topic is out of date...wow!

Quote

Mike,

Why are making this reply to the original post?

Look at the date of the request; I do believe that the issue was settled long ago to Jacko's satisfaction.

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[Tonto 1]

Both systems work perfectly when used correctly. I have about 1500 dives on each, plus 700 drouge throws... which feel like 50/50 to me..
In the relative old days, when throw outs were still leg strap mounted - the Pull out was a clear favourite of mine. These days, it matters little.

Pull out does reduce the chances of some horseshoe type mals, but sometimes the deployment handle "floats" although its always easy to find. I know a lot of "proper" camera people who also favour a pullout as they've had difficulties with throwout pulling the pin in the burble caused by BIG wings. Maybe the same would be true for Birdman type jumps. Comments anyone?

They both work really well - if you use them really well.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

Quote

I know a lot of "proper" camera people who also favour a pullout as they've had difficulties with throwout pulling the pin in the burble caused by BIG wings. Maybe the same would be true for Birdman type jumps. Comments anyone?

Birdman Inc. expressly states that you should not jump a wingsuit with a pull-out.

[Tonto 1]

Thanks for the heads up on that! I guess they would know!

t

It's the year of the Pig.