Too much help on AFF1?

[redshift 0]

I had to repeat my AFF1 because the JM pulled for me. One JM wrote in my logbook that I was "confused", and the other took me to task for not recognizing the pull signal.
Well, I protest.
I did my AFF1 with different JMs than I did my ground school with (did GS and AFF1 on two subsequent weekends). When I was about to go up, JM#1 told me to do a "5-5" signal before waving off. I hadn't been told to do that before. And he said he'd help me find the pull handle. Ok, hadn't heard that before either, but sounds good.
Exit was good, arched, counted, checked alti, checked in/out, did 1st practice pull with JM#1 guiding my hand to the handle. Check alti, another practice pull, JM guides my hand again. Third time the same way. Then I check my alti & heading every few seconds down to 6000, do the "5-5" signal and start to wave off... JM#1 points to the horizon. I think, did I not check heading? Oh well, better pull. JM#2 gives me a kind of "pistol" sign with forefinger and thumb (that's how I saw it), and I'm not sure what he means. Well, I'm pulling, baby. Arch, reach... before my hand gets to the handle, JMs fall away, main opens. Good canopy, excellent approach, good landing. What the hell?
AFF1 repeat, this time with different JMs. Slight tumble on exit, upside down, I arch hard, we all flip back over. I do the whole drill, in practice pulls I find the handle by myself every time (no guidance this time), have enough altitude so I do one extra (four total), check alti down to 6K, wave off, pull, perfect deployment, flight, and landing. I pass AFF1, but JM says I gotta look at my altimeter, not just enjoy the ride. Well, I looked at it at least four times, he just couldn't see it because I just glanced over at it like I was taught, and he was on the other side.
So now I'm feeling a little bugged... I practiced a lot, remembered everything I was supposed to do, but feel like I wasn't allowed to do it.
So, should JMs automatically guide the student's hand to the handle, or not? And should students jump with whoever happens to be around, or the person that taught them procedures and signals?

[Shark 0]

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I did my AFF1 with different JMs than I did my ground school with

that's actual quite common.

did you get video? i got video on all my aff and coach jumps. what you thought happend, and what really happend could be different. get video.

[Squeak 17]

I agree it can be very confusing having different JM all the time some expect different things on a dive. Whilst I'm certain that the guidlines provide for it I think that the should be greater consistancy in AFF training, all JMs do the McDonalds AFF course Same ole sam ole regardless of who is pulling you out the door
Just my $0.02

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[hookitt 0]

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So, should JMs automatically guide the student's hand to the handle, or not? And should students jump with whoever happens to be around, or the person that taught them procedures and signals?

The instructor should attempt to guide the hand If at all possible. If the instructor doesn't deem it possibe then he's gotta do what he's gotta do. With out being there, or seeing good video, It's impossible to answer this informatively. We only have one side of the story.

Signals are universal (with a couple exeptions) So that shouldn't matter.

<>

This indicates you were passing through wave off an pull altitude with out your knowledge. The pull signal was given... At that point attempting to place the student's hand on the ripcord would have been appropriate. If resistance occured The instructor must overcome the resistance. If resistance is not over come, he must eventually give up and just dump the student out so he can save his own ass.

It's normal to jump with different instructors..

You passed Level one, Blow it off man. Practice what you know over and over till you know it inside and out. When you train for level 2, only a few other Maneavers will need to be learned on top of what you already know. Just move on.

Welcome to skydiving!

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Shark 0]

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Whilst I'm certain that the guidlines provide for it I think that the should be greater consistancy in AFF training,

There is consistency, at least at our school. The TLOs and dive flows are taught the same...

[TheBile 0]

I was told by my JM that one reason for AFF1 is to get you familiar with and introduce you to the sensation of freefalling, and help alleviate the 'shock' value for your subsequent dives. Beyond that it's to see if you've taken on board everything learned on the ground. He said it is extremely rare for somebody to fail AFF1, and from what you say I would suggest that it was not your fault that you had to do it again.

For mine, I misread an arch signal as we approached the 5:5 altitude as a pull signal and pulled without giving any wave off. Because I erred on the side of safety and because I clearly described the jump in de-briefing, I was passed to the next level. I would have thought that your debrief would have shown them that you were aware of what was going on and that they would have passed you.

Personally I don't think there's any need for the JM's to guide you hand to the handle unless they feel you have a problem locating it. The three PRCT's prior to the hard deck for your jump should have shown them that you knew where it was.

As far as another JM is concerned, if they are both teaching on the same DZ then they should collaborate to be sure that they are in sync with each other as far as teaching students go. I understand however that hand signals and AFF procedures can differ slightly from country to country.

Best of luck with your other AFF Levels.

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

[Michele 1]

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So now I'm feeling a little bugged... I practiced a lot, remembered everything I was supposed to do, but feel like I wasn't allowed to do it.

Morning, and welcome to the sky.

Frustration is not uncommon...you will experience it many times. It's o.k., it means that you want to do better, and that you will do better in the future. No-one is perfect right off the bat, and know what? Neither are JM's. They will take the steps to protect you as they see fit - that's their job; and your job is to learn from whatever you can, absorb it all, and then perform wonderfully on your next jump.

Get video for all your jumps. Review it with your JM's, and have them teach you even more. Point out what you did right...and see what they say.

And above all, trust them. Even if you don't like what they say, they've had a few more jumps than you, are used to being in the air, and can see things that you can't. If you can explain yourself, like the alti checks, then do so, and see what they say. You will be fine.

But my question really is: Did you have any fun???

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[pilotdave 0]

Don't worry too much about little details like that. Have fun, finish AFF, and in a few more jumps you're not gonna care what the instructors thought you were doing wrong. All those hand signals and everything are gonna seem real trivial real soon. Same with that altitude awareness thing... thats just for students. J/K

Dave

[hookitt 0]

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Personally I don't think there's any need for the JM's to guide you hand to the handle unless they feel you have a problem locating it. The three PRCT's prior to the hard deck for your jump should have shown them that you knew where it was.

Just gotta add this... then I'm out...

Regardless of finding the handle during a PRCT, shadowing the students hand to the handle is important for various reasons. If the student misses the handle or grabs something else, (students can be very creative ) your hand is already there to place on his. If he attempts to front loop, then the instructor is in position to reach under the chest and and stop the frontloop. With out shadowing, the student can frontloop right past our reach, which makes for a very eventful many seconds after ward. If the student does not go for the handle at all, The instructor should grab the wrist and start guiding it to the handle.
Pull time makes students tense regularly. Instructors have their hands full on occasion Shadowing the hand and Guiding it are different.

My hand is there ready to guide. If guidance is deemed necessary You're damn right i'm gonna do it. This goes for most instructors. I would say all but unfortunately some are trigger happy.

On a level one, if you grab the handle on time and pull/throw it ,whether I squeeze your hand around it and MAKE you pull.... It's yours. If I'm forced to pull it, sorry, Do over.

There are so many circumstances where *guidance* is necessarry. Heck that's we're there for.

----The End---

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[hsaddler 0]

Thanks everyone for the advice and perspectives. The consensus seems to be "move on", so I will... not like I have any other choice. What the hell, it's just a little wounded pride and $180.
I like the "shadowing the hand" approach. That's more what I thought would happen: get help only if I missed it.
> Signals are universal (with a couple exeptions) So that shouldn't matter.
What about if every time you get asked "what's this mean?" the instructor is pointing in your face, and then during the jump, the instructor points at the horizon? That's why in scuba diving I don't point to the surface with my thumb to say "let's go up"; it's too easy to mistake for "thumbs up". Perhaps "pull" should be some other signal than pointing (which we instinctively read as "hey, look over there").

[lawrocket 3]

Welcome to AFF!

In my experience, the dive flow is the same for every student and every jumpmaster. Now, I will hand it to you that each JM teaches a little differently and emphasizes different things.

I found out that the wonder of the program is that even though there is the same dive flow, a different JM each time will give you something new that the other did not. My opinion is that you should try out every jumpmaster you can. Jump with different people and each will teach you something the other did not think of. I repeated one JM because I wanted to prove to her that, despite my last jump being successful, I could do a lot better.

For example, I learned that the "PULL, DAMMIT!" signal of the pointer is not necessarily because of altitude awareness. I got it because of a long spot. Another debriefed me and asked if I remembered the altitudes that I checked the the altimeter. Though he told me I checked, he wanted to make sure that I recalled it and didn't just glance. Another JM really taught me some stuff about body positioning, while another was an exit master!

One way or another, welcome to the club! And I'd recommend you try out as many JM's as possible. Soak it up from eveyone. Hell, I even pay attention to "Shark's" advice.


-

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SunWukong 0]

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If the student misses the handle or grabs something else, (students can be very creative ) your hand is already there to place on his.

A friend of mine had a little trouble finding his handle on one of his jumps, and ended up grabbing the instructors altimeter and yanking it around a few times.

On my AFF 5 I had trouble finding my handle and the JM moved into position behind me. I found it by following the bottom of my container and deployed, but I felt something hit my leg. I was sure I'd kicked the JM in the head. I looked down after my open and was real glad to see him deploy about 2000' below me.

[Shark 0]

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Hell, I even pay attention to "Shark's" advice.

That's only because you owe me a beer. See you 'round the dz.

[jlkilpatrick 0]

I couldn't agree more on jumping with different instructors. Every instructor has a different perspective, and if you (as a student) listen, you will learn things from each of them that you wouldn't from another.
The only time I got into real trouble as a student was when I tried to barrel roll as I deployed on (I think) AFF Lvl 4. I was jumping with Kevin Dusch, (Schotz), and as I saw the horizon start to get weird, I felt hands grab my sorry ass and PULL me down on my belly. I really didn't register at the time how bad a thing that was, (even though I had to repeat the Lvl. and had a thorough debrief), but I sure do now.
Kevin, next time I run into you, You drink on me.
Blues!
Luke

Don't just eat a hamburger, eat the HELL out of it!
-Ivan Stang

[mustard 0]

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Personally I don't think there's any need for the JM's to guide you hand to the handle unless they feel you have a problem locating it. The three PRCT's prior to the hard deck for your jump should have shown them that you knew where it was.

I had to laugh when I read the above. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen 3 perfect PTs, and then when it comes to pull time, grab, grobe, panic! And sometimes I cannot help the student find the P/C because all that adrenaline sets in and makes them impossible to (a) control, and (b) help with the pull. Then I need to pull, and the student does the level again. We only have 2 chances to see good body position if they pass the first 2 levels.

Sometimes I cut a student slack if I see that they were altitude aware on his/her own awareness and then justs cannot find it. But if the knees are dropped and they go head down groping for that handle, I cannot in good conscience expect to hand this student over to the next JM and say they did good.

***
DJan

[SkySlut 0]

I dont expect miracles on Level 1s, especially if they havent done a tandem before. They are usually pretty freaked out for most of the skydive and their recall of the event is usually pretty poor. I could tell them that the sky was purple and they would believe me. So without seeing your jump I wont make any specific comments.

For level 1s, I like to see overall good body position and altitude awareness and a nice stable pull. I ask myself the question "Would they have reasonable success at level 2?" If they cant stay stable...especially at pulltime or they arent altitude aware, then no...they are going to have to do level 1 again. These are the BASICS. If they cant do the basics...how are they going to succeed in more advanced manuevers. No biggie...it happens. I would rather see a student repeat a level that was borderline and do well, than have more trouble advancing to another level and blowing it completly.

One thing that I noticed was this...

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Well, I looked at it at least four times, he just couldn't see it because I just glanced over at it like I was taught

Maybe its just the phrasing that you use...but make sure that you READ the altimeter...dont just look at it. Take your time up there...you dont have a lot to get done in 55 seconds or so. Be altitude aware!!! and remember...Pull!!! Pull at the right altitude and pull with stability. Practice the stuff on the ground until you are blue in the face...if your DZ has one of those realtime altimeters, use that to develop your internal clock. Its easier and cheaper to practice on the ground rather than in the air. Good Luck, be safe and have fun!!!

[TheBile 0]

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I cannot tell you how many times I have seen 3 perfect PTs, and then when it comes to pull time, grab, grobe, panic!

Of course I'll bow to your experience on this one. my comment was based on my own limited experience of AFF. Good to know I did something right though.

Gerb

I stir feelings in others they themselves don't understand. KA'CHOW !

[mustard 0]

Some JMs do get a bit carried away with "helping" a student, so it's a fine line as to whether to put a hand on the handle, but if somebody's looking for it, and I'm right there (shadowing the pull), then I can help if it's needed. I do know some very bullheaded instructors who think it's their job to muscle the student's hand onto the handle. But frankly, that's the exception. Most JMs really want to see the student pull on their own, with their own awareness. Makes for a *lot* less anxiety on subsequent jumps.

I'm sure you did a lot more right than just pull, but that is the most important part of freefall.

***
DJan

[weavermc 0]

Morning all.

As a S/L, TAN, and AFF Instructor, I've spent a lot of time over the last few years with students, and wanted to reiterate some of the comments made on this post.

First and foremost, I hope you had fun. I have been teaching for years simply to see that look of joy and excitement on a students face after they land (especially when compared to how they look right before exiting).

Second - Video is invaluable on the first few jumps. As instructors we deal with a variety of people and EVERY jump is different. Although we'd like to think that we see every single minor detail in every skydive, the truth is during Levels 1-3, we spend a lot of time looking at everything 'just in case.' I can watch a student doing his dive flow in the air, but i'm also looking at leg position, adjusting my grip to feel any built-in turns, looking at the arch, head, arms etc etc etc, and of course, waiting for the student to make a simple mistake that potentially leads to a tumble/flip etc. Unfortunately, I may miss a small detail (like an altimeter check), which is why I rely on my assistant JM to help catch all the details... but once again - video is the catch-all that helps us and the student realize what 'really' happened. I can't count the number of times i've told a student 'how the skydive really went' and have them not believe something happened till they saw the video.

Third (and finally) - Try not to get too frustrated during your early skydiving progression. Every jump you make will increase your comfort level and your appreciation will grow with leaps and bounds. One of the best ways to help this is to follow another person's advice and jump with absolutely every instructor/JM you can. Each instructor has a different personality and will emphasize different things allowing you learn with increasing bounds.

Blue Skies and welcome to this awesome sport!

[pilotdave 0]

http://www.skyeyeskydiving.com/images/AFF_Level_1.JPG

This student looks like he really wonders why the instructors are pointing at each other.
Dave

[hsaddler 0]

Thanks to everyone who replied to this. Since the original post, I'm up to L5 and -- yes -- having fun. The instructors are really great and teaching me a lot. I understand the point about jumping with many instructors, but at least at first, I'd rather stick with the same ones -- that is, the ones who know what I tend to fuck up and can concentate on helping me fix it. I'll be happy to jump around (if that's the phrase) once I've got the basics down.
Now, if I could just keep my legs together... apparently I'm spreading my legs (ok, no jokes) pretty wide and thus making it hard to arch sufficiently. Think I'll just tie my shoelaces together next time.

[hsaddler 0]

Forgot to say thanks to pilotdave for the picture. I had to look at it twice to make certain it wasn't me! I think all AFF students should be forced to look at it repeatedly, in between photos of malfunctions.

[hookitt 0]

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This student looks like he really wonders why the instructors are pointing at each other.
Dave

He looks like he needs a Smack on the Forhead! (ok... just a tap to get his attention.

Nice picture.

-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Clownburner 0]

Hey, I can admit it. On my AFF1 I had a similar experience. I got the pull signal and for about a half second I looked at the other instructor. When HE pointed too, the light bulb went on and I started my pull. My AFF JM was already moving my arm around to my pilot chute by the time I got there, but I pulled on my own and passed.

AFF1 was a lot to take in, even after a tandem. Glad to hear the original poster is doing well though. I just passed AFF5 myself. Now if I can only stop these slow turns...

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[dayle 0]

Hey, first off, welcome to the sky

I don't know where you took your training but it was grilled into me that it doesn't matter where the instuctor is pointing, that means pull, at you away up, down, doesnt matter pull the chute.

This is universally accepted (I believe) and important. Later in you hopefully long skydiving career you may be jumping with a buddy or two and one of them will give you a pull signal. Don't hesitate, it's probably that they've seen your D-bay or risers floating around behind your back

Blue skies

Dayle