to cypres or not.

[dgskydive 0]

Never say never. I have seen two fire in the last month or so. What is your life really worth to you.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

If your reason for not owning one is purly financial, you ae not looking hard enough for one. You can buy used Cypres's for around 500-700.00 USD depending on how many years are left on them.

Dom

[Ron 7]

I just think that a large portion of the sport has been lulled into a
false sense of security about the gear we currently use. Kind of that whole "it can't happen to me, I've got
a new and that's the latest advancement in the market!"

Quote

And THIS is why I have a problem with a CYPRES...Too many people think they are safe with it. Your not. They fail. Shit happens.

I think they are great...I have one in one rig, and one rig without. They ARE expensive. And that is why I only have two....Plus I'll jump with it, or without it.....I don't need it to feel safe. I did 600 jumps without one (starting with jump #13).

I AM RESPONSABLE FOR MY OWN SAFTEY.

The cute Box is there incase I really screw up.

Get on if you can afford it.....But jump without it if you have to.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydiverek 54]

Quote

Somewhere in the /from tv/ folder of skydivingmovies.com (media player isnt working for me right now...), there's a video about Tom Sanders. Part of it is a clip he took during a big way RW jump. They were exiting from high altitude, so they were on oxygen. He didn't realize it, but his oxygen line had come undone or was clogged or something. He passed out after lining up for the exit, but he was held up and dragged out by all the other jumpers. He tumbled for a few thousand feet, then finally woke up and pulled. He didn't have a cypres. If he hadn't woken up, he would have died. After that he bought a cypres and (apparently) wont jump without one.

Is it worth it? Only you can answer that.

Dave

Who knows the name of this video file?

[billvon 2,380]

>if this is your reason for not buying one you have some serious
> thinking to do..

If someone has a choice of making 80 jumps in the course of a year, or not jumping at all that year and buying a cypres - at the start of the next year they will be safer if they are current, even if they don't have the cypres.

[billvon 2,380]

>I have seen two fire in the last month or so.

I've seen perhaps a dozen. None would have died without the cypres; they were all pulling or had just pulled when the cypres fired. A cypres fire does not equate to a device saving your life, 90% of the time.

[AndyMan 7]

I simply don't believe peopel who say that they can't afford it.

It's pretty tough to get through buying decent gear for much less then $2000, and older cyprese cost roughly $500... Total cost $2500. The cost of the Cypres is less then 20% of the total gear cost. It's not insignificant, but it's also not huge. If you can afford the $2000, you can save a bit longer to afford the $2500.

What I think is truely entertaining, is when people who bought new custom gear also claim to not be able to afford them...

I pass no judgements against those who choose not to jump one, just as I pass no judgements against those who choose not to jump with a reserver (eg. BASE), but anyone to claims they can't afford one is offering a red herring.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[PhillyKev 0]

How many people who claim they can't afford a cypress haven't spent any money on a jumpsuit, or a helmet that costs more than a protek, or goggles for more than $3?

It's called prioritizing. If you can afford to skydive at all then you're not destitute. I'm willing to bet you could eat out less, drink less beer, stop watching cable, get rid of that cell phone, etc. But don't tell me you can't afford it. The answer is, you're unwilling to budget for it.

[sducoach 0]

What about that other 10%??

Blues,
J.E.

James 4:8

[wmw999 2,116]

Yes, you're unwilling to budget for it, because you don't consider it to be mandatory. Very nice, but not mandatory.

And some people are willing to jump gear that others aren't willing to, just so they can jump. Others buy used jumpsuits, used pro-tecs. When you've generally had enough money, it's hard to understand the difference that $50 can make, never mind $500.

If your gear budget is $1500, you can buy a whole lot more rig without a Cypres than you can with one.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skybytch 259]

Quote

How many people who claim they can't afford a cypress haven't spent any money on a jumpsuit, or a helmet that costs more than a protek, or goggles for more than $3?

*raising hand*

I made my first jumpsuit last for 500+ jumps. My Protec got stolen so I bought a well used frap hat for $25. I used $7 Kroops until they were so scratched and cracked that I had to get a new pair; wish I could have found some $3 goggles, I'dve bought them instead.

Quote

But don't tell me you can't afford it. The answer is, you're unwilling to budget for it.

I used to not pay utility bills so I'd have money to make a jump. I didn't eat out, I didn't drink beer that wasn't free, I didn't have cable, I didn't have a cell phone - for awhile there I didn't have a home phone either. I was not unwilling to budget for an AAD, I couldn't afford to set aside anything toward one.

Don't assume. If someone says they can't afford one... maybe they really can't. As long as they aren't asking you to give them one, how they spend what money they do have is their business.

[billvon 2,380]

>What about that other 10%??

One person dies every two years or so when they have a double mal, and a few people die every year from a main/reserve entanglement where neither canopy inflates enough to save them. Given that, do you use a round tersh? If not, why not? Is your life worth less than $1000? (tershes are pretty cheap)

For some people, the chances of needing a cypres are high (i.e. AFF-JM's, big way people, freeflyers.) For some the chances are lower (4-way people, cameramen) and for some nearly nonexistent (i.e. CRW, swoopers.) Similarly, for some people (i.e. CRW people, test jumpers) a tersh may be useful; for others (i.e. 4-way) odds are you won't need it. Everyone makes these tradeoffs.

I don't buy the old argument "what, your life is worth less than X?" Most skydivers don't use Snell-approved helmets (or indeed crashworthy helmets at all) tertiary reserves, large 3-ring systems (proven more reliable under spinning loads) boots or kneepads. They don't use these things because they don't think the extra protection is worth it, not because their life is worth less than a $20 Protec. A cypres is no different.

[billvon 2,380]

>If you can afford to skydive at all then you're not destitute.

My first rig cost $250. I started at a place where I could make my first jump for $99, then learned to pack real fast so I could afford to keep jumping. (Staff could jump for $10, whatever altitude the plane was going to, as long as there was an extra slot.) I would skip work so I could take advantage of the Ranch's $13 to 13,500 deal during weekdays.

Even a used cypres would have cost more than my first rig _and_ my first 20 jumps combined. I would have had to take a long time off jumping if I planned to both live and pay my student loans back.

[mikkey 0]

I think the money issue is a real issue in skydiving and does influence safety.
I am on my third skydiving "career" - started back in 1978, had a 6 year break in the 80's and stopped again in 1992 and now taken it up again after an 11 year break.
When I first started I was a poor student, the second time around my finances were not to good for other reasons. I used crap equipment, I could not do the type of jumping activity I wanted etc. and both "careers" were interupted after mal's with injury and the equipment was both times "involved". Both times I gave it away because of frustration of not having up to date equipment, not being able to jump when I wanted, and having to compromise on safety. It just took the fun away.

This time around I am financially secure and was able to spend the money to have a quick re-training with good instructors. I went straight out to buy a new rig, new reserve, new main and a new cypres. I've got a decent helmet and a pro-dytter. I did not have to compromise on anything - and guess what - I am having so much more fun, I feel more confident/safe because I know I use the best equipment available and don't worry all the time if I should pay a bill or jump next week-end. It is a totally new ball game for me.
I am not saying that people who can't afford the latest and best equipment should not skydive or do not have fun skydiving, but I think that people who say they can not "afford" equipment like a Cypres maybe should create a plan and save some money first until they can afford to do in a safe way.
From my own experience I think it makes a hell of a difference how I feel this time around and the amount of enjoyment I get from the sport.

Just my 2 Cents.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[faulknerwn 36]

I don't think it bothers everyone as much as it does you tho. I was a broke student when I first started jumping - I know a lot of people who don't have much money. I bought my first rig for <$1k, and I have another friend who bought a rig just last year for only $1000 - and he could barely afford that. I don't want to make the sport financiably viable only for the well-off - too many of my friends over the years have not had that much money.

I don't have anything against Cypreses - but I have 4 rigs right now. One's for CRW, where you couldn't pay me to put a Cypres in it, one is too small and won't hold a Cypres, and the other 2 I just don't jump nearly as often. I'll probably put a Cypres in one of the other 2 just to have a rig where I have one, but I don't particularly sweat it.

I've known somewhere between 20-30 jumpers who've died in the sport over the past 10 years - only 1 would possibly have been saved by a Cypres, but most likely it would only have made the body look better for the funeral. But unfortunately so many people in the sport today aren't willing to listen to advise about downsizing too rapidly, but they have to have a Cypres there to "save them." Jumping a bigger canopy for a longer time, not downsizing rapidly will be much more likely to save your life.

And the post about the old way of thinking in the sport - I can believe its true. One of my absolutely favorite skydives over the years was a couple of years ago. A buddy of mine and me had some old-time gear - belly mount reserves and all. Repacked everything (my reserve was older than me!) and we went up for a jump. We wanted to goof off under canopy so he was to open at 8 and I was to open immediately after. Well, he opened, and I went to find my main ripcord handle (on the right lift web). It wasn't there. I traced up and down the webbing, looking and feeling for it, but it wasn't there. About 5 grand I decided that I'd been trying to find it for 2500 feet or so at this point and I probably wasn't going to.

The whole time I was looking for the main, I was staring at the reserve ripcord handle right underneath my chin. So I remember thinking very clearly at the time - this is so cool (ok, I did curse a bit too :-) Old -time gear, no RSL, no AAD, gear I'm not intimately familiar with like modern stuff, and I'm in charge of my own destiny. Whether I live or die is up to me. And it was the coolest feeling.

I ended up dumping the reserve about 4, and immediately after it opened my main ripcord handle flopped back into view. I think it was hidden back behind my armpit somewhere. It was a totally awesome jump.

W

[skybytch 259]

Quote

But unfortunately so many people in the sport today aren't willing to listen to advise about downsizing too rapidly, but they have to have a Cypres there to "save them." Jumping a bigger canopy for a longer time, not downsizing rapidly will be much more likely to save your life.

Great point Wendy!

Not that the people who need to see it will get it. . .

[sducoach 0]

Bill,
You make my point.f Insurance, only Insurance.

You can quote stats all day long, 90% or 10% what is your exposure. You don't buy flood insurance if you live on top of the Rocky Mountains. Shawn appears to have around 50 jumps. Good insurance or not? Depends upon your exposure, not stats.

I'm not a crew dog but if I were, I probably would be jumping a round reserve. As far as (I assume you meant tertiary) "tersh" is concerned, I don't know anyone using a third canopy except for planned cut aways or test jumps, but that could be another subject line.

I agree Bill, "I don't buy the old argument" either.
Insurance, only insurance.

Blues,
J.E.

James 4:8

[TattooedMoFo 0]

Only 2 points:
1: How much is your life worth?
2:If an item take 1 more WHAT IF out of a jump,then why not?

On the SSK website 239 reported life saves have been made with an AAD ( PArachutist), I wouldn't like to fall into the catagory it could have, but didn't save.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Only 2 points:
1: How much is your life worth?
2:If an item take 1 more WHAT IF out of a jump,then why not?

On the SSK website 239 reported life saves have been made with an AAD ( PArachutist), I wouldn't like to
fall into the catagory it could have, but didn't save.

And I only have one point....
All 239 were also have been fine if they pulled the silver handle before a cool toy did it for them.

Most of these were people that just flat out screwed up. Only 3 I think were collisions.

Most of the flat out screwed up, were people that were low timers.

You could also save lives with RSL's....And even more lives would be saved if everyone had to jump a Manta...Even more if you banned skydiving completely.

AAD....If you want one, and can afford to have one....Get one.

NEVER trust the damn thing, and ALWAYS rely on your mind and hands to save your own butt.

If you have one fire because you flipped out...think about if this sport is for you...you are dead. If I owned a DZ, and you had an AAD fire. I might not let you jump at my DZ again.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riddler 0]

Opinions aside, last I heard what that about 85% of skydivers wear an AAD. I can't confirm that statistic right now - anyone have a link?

Sometimes, it IS safer to follow the herd.

[billvon 2,380]

>You can quote stats all day long, 90% or 10% what is your exposure.
> You don't buy flood insurance if you live on top of the Rocky
> Mountains.

I agree. It's all about deciding what's going to do you the most good based on what you do, what you can spend, how often you jump etc. For most people, a cypres significantly decreases the risk of death during a skydive, which is why I recommend them to new jumpers (at least those who can afford them.)

I was amused at PIA a few years ago, where Sandy Reid showed me a rig designed to hold a 98 sq ft reserve, a 60ish sq ft main canopy and a cypres, but with a normal-sized harness. "Yeah, fitting the cypres in there was a real challenge," he told me. I found it funny that you could look at a rig, designed for a normal-sized jumper, with a 69 sq ft canopy and sub-100 sqft reserve, and think that a cypres would significantly reduce the risks of injury or death when using that rig.

[sducoach 0]

Bill, No kidding. Seems to me back when RWS did the same with a Vector. The rig was so small it had to have a ROL because you could not reach a BOC. Go figure. These days I recommend an AAD simply due to the lack of experience/time even with some "high" jump numbers. I can show you at our DZ a guy with several "hundred" that should never jump without one.
Insurance, simply Insurance.

Blues,
J.E.

James 4:8

[pilotdave 0]

The video with tom sanders talking about the cypres is /from tv/cnbc-nat_geog_part2.mpg, but it's 87 megs so here's a quote:

"That device, called a Cypres, is actually my most important piece of equipment."

-Tom Sanders

He passed out on a world record attempt in Slovakia in 1994 (216 way I think).

"I was literally carried out, in freefall, with just this mass of bodies. And for 25 seconds I was unconscious, falling through the sky... So basically unless I woke up during freefall, I was a dead man."

-Tom Sanders


Dave

[skydiverbob 0]

Finally just broke down and bought one. 53 years old, been in the sport for over 20 years, figured it was about time.

Who Dares Wins

[Kris 0]

I use one, but I did my first 100 jumps off student status without one, and I have no problems making a jump without it turned on.

However, the added insurance of it allowing me to possibly un-fuck myself at some future date made it an easy decision to get one.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™