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shawnstarr

to cypres or not.

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obviously another layer of protection. that last line of defense. but its real expensive and you'll probably never need it. is it worth it. i wanna hear from the people out there that don't use them and why.
------------------------------------------------
'I refuse to tiptoe quitely through life
only to arrive safely at death' Anon

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I have a couple of rigs, I only have a cypres in my main sport rig, the excuse for not having them in my others is financial.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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Find a phonebook - get a quote on your cheapest funeral possible - compare to Cypres cost.

A Cypres will not ensure your safety. I'm more likely to hook it in - and even if it works - it's more likely to happen when I'm out of awareness chasing some AFF student than in the "knocked unconsious" senario. Mine was a gift - but when it's done, I'll probably buy another one. I have 3800 dives.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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but its real expensive

Other arguements aside, if this is your reason for not buying one you have some serious thinking to do..




This is my reasoning...I can't afford it...simple as that..I dont see how I have to do "some serious thinking"...are you too afraid to make a jump without a cypres?

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

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I must agree with you here. I have 2500+ dives without a Cypres, and should mine not turn on tomorrow morning, I will tell another Instructor and go and skydive. It is not part of my gear, it is not part of my drills. It's there in case I have a brain fart or go to sleep. If Cypres went bancrupt tomorrow and all units were recalled - it would not change my view of skydiving at all.
It's the year of the Pig.

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I look at a Cypress similar to fire insurance on the house. I don't plan on a fire, hope I never have one, don't think about it much, but still have fire insurance. Same line of thought with Cypress. "if you think the cost of insurance is too high, then consider the cost without it."
Stay Safe

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Initial cost: ~$900

Additional costs: batteries: let's say a new set every two years: 79X5=$395

two 4 year checks: 160X2=$320

grand total=900+395+320=1615

1615/12years=~135

135/12months=$11.2

11.2/30 days=.37

Is your life worth at least $ .37 a day? If yes the Cypress is for you.
Memento Audere Semper

903

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I did most of my first 800 jumps without a Cypres (the tandems were with one of course). I got one last year because I was planning to do some larger RW dives and a friend made it affordable.

I'd have no problem jumping without one, but I do like having it there. Makes my mom and kid feel better about me jumping too.

The price IS a valid reason to not have one imho. Not every jumper can afford to spend another $500 (used) to $1000 (new) on their gear.

Jumping without a Cypres can be done safely; there are thousands of skydivers out there who've done it and are still doing it. Most of them knowingly accept the risk that they are taking by not having one - the risk of being knocked out or doing something stupid in freefall and going in. Some of them choose not to have one because they don't trust it, which is also a valid reason.

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Shawstarr
1. I have not yet been able to justify the expense.

Being involved in different types of jumping could
make it worth wile for me.

I may need a third parachute some day but not gonna wear one.

2. I don't like to complicate my gear.
My personal choice.

But keep this in mind...everyone will loose track of
time or alt at least once in their skydiving career...are you ready?
...mikeB|

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

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"Some of them choose not to have one because they don't trust it, which is also a valid reason."

The only other reason which I've heard, is the thrill of being master of your destiny. The guy who used this rationale was busted doing 147 on his bike, and no longer jumps.....
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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In 1985 I had a friend knocked unconcious exiting a DC-3. The one guy who realized she was in trouble got below her before he realized, he couldn't get back up to her, and she went in. Her husband of nine months was on the jump, as well as about 20 of us from the DZ. At that time an AAD acceptable to most experienced jumpers didn't exist. A few people jumped an FXC 12000, and many people wouldn't jump with them BECAUSE they had it. Sentinels could be used on most rigs but the risk of misfire was considered too high by most. This was a time when most of us wore either no helmet or a frap hat (padded leather cap). The only hard hats available were motorcyle, Protecs, and hocky helmets. Most of the jumpers on the load said immediately afterward they were going to start wearing a helmet. Not a single person followed through and starting wearing one if they didn't already.

When the Cypres was introduced in at the 1991 PIA symposium it was revolutionary. When it finally became widely available in 1993 many of us said were were going to get one. I had one of the first at my DZ and that wasn't until 1995. Back then many people had to have their older rigs modified, another $70 and going cypres prices were $1100. At least three jumpers on that fatal load and still jumping don't jump an AAD. Reasons stated are money, I don't need it, and risk from misfire. While I don't agree with the last two and the first isn't a problem for me, its up to them. And they know first hand.

The only fatality at my DZ in 35 years didn't have a cypres and probably would have been saved by one. At least 3 cypres firings were definate saves. (Small DZ) Some others were low openings but you never know for sure.

For my first 1700 jumps or so skydiving was unique. It was the only sport I could think of that if you did nothing it was certain you were going to die. That's still the case for those who chose to jump without an AAD. That was part of the challenge, thrill, and attraction of the sport, that absolute total reliance on your own actions to save your life. And we accepted the risk.

I have three rigs assembled at the moment. The two that I routinely jump have cypres'. The other rig for occasional CRW doesn't. Having the AAD's has changed the psychology of the sport for me. You may claim it shouldn't and I agree, but it really is different. Death is no longer a certain outcome of no action. And in some ways that is regrettable. It's changed the sport. Both for the better and the worse. I suspect that many who chose to not use an AAD want to participate in the "old" skydiving, and dare to accept the risk.

Sometimes I miss the old skydiving, but I've went to less funerals. So, I highly recommend them to new jumpers, usually jump with one myself, and insist they're maintained in the rigs I service. I also don't charge anything beyond out of pocket costs for anything related to a cypres, because I don't want my rigging fees to discourage someone from using a cypres.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Assuming jump tickets are $18 each, if you make 5 jumps a day, twice a week (10 per weekend), you only need to stop jumping for three weeks to pay for a used unit at about $500.

Seeing as how a majority of jumpers in the country can't jump 12 months out of the year, taking at least a month off is almost mandatory during some time of the year...usually more, so if you don't make 10 jumps a weekend you're covered here as well.

Batteries will only cost you about 6 jumps. So take a day off once every two years.

Within this scope, it seems expense isn't really the issue, it's the person's inability to be disciplined and not spend that money for a month.

I'm not saying you should have an AAD or not, that's a personal choice, but don't argue cost...argue that you're not disciplined enough not to spend the money your not using for jumps.


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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Assuming jump tickets are $18 each, if you make 5 jumps a day, twice a week (10 per weekend), you only need to stop jumping for three weeks to pay for a used unit at about $500.


True. But anyone who can afford to spend $180 per week ($720 per month) on jumps can generally easily afford $500 for a used Cypres. What about those who can only afford to spend $100 or so a month on jumps?

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For a fair number of folks, getting a Cypres means jumping less; if they're marginal in their finances for jumping anyway, then that means they get uncurrent.

I have a Cypres in my new rig; I, too, come from the days before they were common. I wouldn't hesitate to jump without one, but I'm glad they're available. I too have at least one friend who'd be more likely to be alive with one.

I think Councilman24 had a good post.

You're not certainly trading your life in if you don't get one. The vast majority of people never need them.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I use a Cypres because I can afford to. But I'm sure I'd still be jumping without a Cypres if I had to. Of course I rest easy at night knowing it's there (plus it helps convince the whuffo family members that skydiving isn't as dangerous as they think it is once I explain to them what a Cypres is and that I use one). :):PB|



Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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What about those who can only afford to spend $100 or so a month on jumps?



First off, if you're a new jumper and only making 5-6 jumps a month, you're not very current and you might have to consider the fact that this sport may just be too expensive for you to stay in (I know this isn't you Lisa, I'm just making a point).

As for everyone else out there. If you're spending only $100 a month on skydiving (which I have doubts about) than maybe it's going to take you two winters to pay for a Cypres. Again, it's not a matter of cost, it's a matter of discipline.

I just want to be sure everyone is clear on the fact that I'm not saying you must have a Cypres to jump (in fact, I think it's a pretty sad state how many jumpers flat out refuse to jump without an AAD, ever). But, if you want one and you're whining about not being able to afford it, I think there are other issues at work.


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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That's a very interesting perspective on the issue Terry. I'm particularily fascinated with the "old days" angle regarding new jumpers.

I'm a "new" jumper - with only a year and a half and 130 to my credit. I bought my gear at jump #25 and it's as plane jne as you can get - original racer, no Cypres, no RSL, raven main. All the money is in the reserve - a 3 year old Strong Stellar.

On jump #20 I had my first (and so far, only) reserve ride. THAT experience radically changed my persepctive on the sport in two ways. First, a round reserve was no longer an option for my own gear. Think the 'almost dead AggieDave' thread but under a round. Second, I had the Epiphany of self-mastery. A Very Real fear of death hit for a brief second and 'not today, never like this' came to mind in the slow-motion time lapse that we experience in a very dangerous situation. since that time I have had only one other potential reserve ride (frozen hands = missed handle) and I was already thinking 'not out, once more, then to the handles'. Pull #2 was successful but I was already drawing down to the Lifesavers when the snatch force hit.

***

Counterpoint:

I would be what you'd call an "old sports car racer" ... I started ice racing in 1988. Back then, a 'rubber-to-ice' class car was a stripped out econobox (Think Ford Fiesta, 70's Honda Civic) run on modified road tires with no safety equipment except a helmet. None. No rollover bar or roll cage. No fire suit, gloves, or nomex shoes. your safety harness was the standard seatbelt and the seat was the standard seat. On a mile long circuit with 4-5 foot snowbanks on either side I would regularly hit 90 MPH entering a corner and then pitch the car into a lurid slide... alongside a competitor doing the same. Never did I roll a race car over and never was I injured. Cars did roll and were written off but no people were injured. [This would be the 'good ol' days of skydiving]

I progressed through Improved Touring (RX-7) and Grand Touring 2 (300 bhp Datsun 240Z on slicks) and acquired the modern safety gear piece by piece. But, tiring of the ever-increasing cost I stepped back and competed in Vintage Racing with my Triumph GT6+. That car took me 2 years and $10k to restore and it was destroyed by someone else's 100 mph spin 'happening in my space'. Only chequebooks were injured, thankfully. Vintage Racing cars also have minimal or no rollover protection. Driven as road cars, they also have minimal crash protection. [This is a big way or freefly with no AAD and audible]


Then I started skydiving. I've done 2 or 3 guest drives since the 1998 accident, and still instruct and practice on a regular basis. The love for the balls-out wheel to wheel combat is gone, though. I wonder whether my love for skydiving would likewise wane if (when?) a friend - or me - were to be seriously injured? [I'm guessing that would be 'my crash']

After all this analysis of the things that seem the SAME about racing and skydiving, an interesting point remains different in my circumstance and you said it well:

Quote

It was the only sport I could think of that if you did nothing it was certain you were going to die. That's still the case for those who chose to jump without an AAD. That was part of the challenge, thrill, and attraction of the sport, that absolute total reliance on your own actions to save your life. And we accepted the risk



It did not attract me TO the sport, but is has kept me. Every time I jump, and until now that has largely been solo or 2 way, I rely on myself.
I'll jump my old racer until I can afford a container + AAD at the same time. but I never want to lose the feeling of self-reliance. Free as a bird, but only until pull time.

Dave


Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

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you might have to consider the fact that this sport may just be too expensive for you to stay in (I know this isn't you Lisa, I'm just making a point).


Actually, that is me. I really can't afford to make more than 5-6 jumps per month - I work in the industry, remember? :ph34r: There've been times in my life that I could barely afford 2 jumps a month.

I assembled my current rig from a combination of sponsored (i.e. free) and used equipment - I wouldn't have a Cypres now if a friend hadn't let me pay off the $450 price.

There are a lot of people like me out there; people who love the sport but have to struggle a bit financially to get up in the air at all.

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Actually, that is me. I really can't afford to make more than 5-6 jumps per month - I work in the industry, remember? There've been times in my life that I could barely afford 2 jumps a month.



Ok, point taken;)
All I'm saying, is that I don't believe that money is the root of the problem. If someone wants something, they tend to find a way to make it work. I just think that a large portion of the sport has been lulled into a false sense of security about the gear we currently use. Kind of that whole "it can't happen to me, I've got a new and that's the latest advancement in the market!"

Everyone needs to remember that you are effectively committing suicide EVERY time you get out of an airplane at altitude, until you decide to do something to stop it at pull time.

Focus, people. THIS IS NOT A SAFE SPORT. We make it safer every year, but it is NOT safe. If there is gear out there that can make it even safer than it is now, why wouldn't you take advantage of it? Unless you feel it can't happen to you, or that making another jump is more important than saving the money to invest in safer equipment so that you can jump for years to come....


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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but its real expensive and you'll probably never need it. is it worth it.



For the people who have used them it was worth every cent and then some

----

No one has asked an obvious question. Sure it's a chunk of change but can you afford to get one any way?

I won't tell you whether or not to have one, I have lots of jumps with and with out. I would suggest having one as soon as you can afford to, but I would never tell you to NOT jump if you don't have one.

PM me if you care to know some specifics about some friends of mine that had em and used em, and a couple friends that didn't have em..........
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Somewhere in the /from tv/ folder of skydivingmovies.com (media player isnt working for me right now...), there's a video about Tom Sanders. Part of it is a clip he took during a big way RW jump. They were exiting from high altitude, so they were on oxygen. He didn't realize it, but his oxygen line had come undone or was clogged or something. He passed out after lining up for the exit, but he was held up and dragged out by all the other jumpers. He tumbled for a few thousand feet, then finally woke up and pulled. He didn't have a cypres. If he hadn't woken up, he would have died. After that he bought a cypres and (apparently) wont jump without one.

Is it worth it? Only you can answer that.

Dave

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