Newbie with a question, should you always cutaway?

[andybr6 0]

I am a newbie have never had a mal, but i was always taught my reserve drills in the normall Cut, Away, - Reserve, Arch method. I was wondering if you have to cut away if your main was still in the container, e.g. your pilot chute was stuck in the pocket. By not cutting away are you risking having an entanglement if the main comes out during reserve deployment due to the lack of pressure on the main tray?

------------------------------------------------

"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Joyner 0]

Quote

I am a newbie have never had a mal, but i was always taught my reserve drills in the normall Cut, Away, - Reserve, Arch method. I was wondering if you have to cut away if your main was still in the container, e.g. your pilot chute was stuck in the pocket. By not cutting away are you risking having an entanglement if the main comes out during reserve deployment due to the lack of pressure on the main tray?

The reason they are saying that you should always cut away, is because they are keeping it simple. Saying that you should always cutaway is a way to save precious time lost in desiding back or forth weather to cutaway or not. BUT! If you never deploy your main for some reason, there is really no need or reason to cutaway. But until you feel confident enough in your own ability to handle a high speed malfunction, I would stick to what ever your instructors tell you. Running out of alti? Go straight for silver EVERY time!

Funny this question should arise the day after I ALMOST did a reservdeployment without cutting away. I was tracking away from a 6 way, waved off, reached, pulled, but with the PC half way out of the pocket it snagged and my hand slipped. I reached back for it, and of course with half the PC out of the pocket it was flapping in the wind. Had a hard time getting a good grip. All through that 2 second experience my eyes never left my alti, and I made the plan, I keep grabbing for it until 2000 feet and then I go straight to the silver. I got the PC out at about 2500, had a good deployment after that. This plan didn't just come to me in mid emergency. I made that plan up years ago (the plan was about a completely stuck PC, but it still worked well).

Morale of the story: Make a plan, repeat and drill that plan over and over. I don't go over every posible type of malfunction every jump, but I do at least one in my head every jump. And I ALWAYS do a few dummy procedures every time. Be prepared in other words. Then it is of course important to reevaluate your plans every no and then, by talking to other jumpers and instructors. If you do change your plan. Make DARN sure that you repeat and drill the new plan.....

[billvon 2,384]

This has been hashed out a lot here. I teach students to always cut away from everything, because they aren't good at determining mal types yet and they have time to cut away (they pull at 5000.) For experienced jumpers, I recommend that if they cannot deploy (i.e. hard pull or lost/floating/stuck pud) they go straight for reserve.

The hard one is when you have a very partial deployment, like a PC in tow or an open container with no PC visible (in the case of a pullout or ripcord rig.) Cutting away will help prevent a sudden two-canopy-out situation, but the risers may get in the way of the reserve if you cut away especially if you have poor riser covers. Note that if you have good riser covers, cutting away from a total mal won't do a thing - nothing will move. I usually recommend cutting away first if your riser covers are good. (and I also recommend fixing your riser covers if they're not so good, since that can help prevent mals to begin with.)

[Faber 0]

i were told alway to cut first before hitting the silver.

Idid so on a mal were my pc(it went upside down and made a knot.i were glad i did becours assoon i had pulled my reserve my main came out,it were quick off my hardness(i have atom riseres so it got stuck there,until i gave it a kick by my hand).

iwere teached:
1 if you are in dougth,then your not.cut away.
2always do a full cutaway and then pull silver

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[voodew1 0]

We had a relatively low time jumper using a rol lose his handle in the spandex. He chose to go straight for the reserve--It deployed and over half the lines on the reserve broke. His descent was slowed long enough for him to dig the handle out and throw out the main--He landed uninjured with a main and a blown up reserve out. IF THERE IS NOTHING OUT DON'T CUT AWAY WHY WOULD YOU CUTAWAY SOMETHING THAT IS STILL IN THE CONTAINER.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Faber 0]

Quote

WHY WOULD YOU CUTAWAY SOMETHING THAT IS STILL IN THE CONTAINER.

read what i wrote..there didnt come anything.If i got the mal you described i were in deep water..By the way it aint normal 1/2of the lines on the reserve are broken..
i trust my reserve by evry thing if i pulls it im in deep s### and its the only way to save my bad A##.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[billvon 2,384]

>IF THERE IS NOTHING OUT DON'T CUT AWAY WHY WOULD YOU
>CUTAWAY SOMETHING THAT IS STILL IN THE CONTAINER.

I agree with this for experienced jumpers, but for students there is value in having one procedure. It's not always possible to _tell_ what the state of the main is (and where it is) especially if you have 2 jumps.

>He chose to go straight for the reserve--It deployed and over half
>the lines on the reserve broke.

Hmm. While that's a consideration, I usually tell students that they should not hesistate to deploy the reserve at any time at all; reserve failure is incredibly rare. Which container and reserve was this? What did the manufacturer say after you told them about it?

[rigging65 0]

Ah yes, this thread again...

We teach to put out the reserve straight away on anything where your container isn't open and you haven't slowed down or changed body orientation. That's how we define a "Total".

The reason is simply that you don't want to waste time while at terminal. Another reason is that if the main does fall out of the container after the reserve inflates, you'd like to have control of it. Most two-outs stabilize themselves and aren't a problem on deployment, but if you've already cutaway your main, the risers may slide up the reserve's lines and choke it off or somehow foul the good canopy. As we teach it, you'd want to have control of the situation so that you can make the call as to what you're going to land under...one or two canopies.

I'm actually in favor of teaching to always cutaway from a simplicity standpoint, but I've never liked the idea of teaching one thing to students and another thing to up-jumpers. Most people tend to revert to their initial training under stress, so why not teach it correctly and thoroughly the first time? Just my 2 cents...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[voodew1 0]

I am not 100% sure but I think he was given a new reserve by the company even though it was 10yrs old and probably overloaded. This was not done by choice I think it was demanded by our DZO. I think the container was a Javelin. The reserve was not a PD or Tempo that I am sure or I would think twice about jumping one. Add to the age of the gear, low jump numbers of the diver and panic of total which could have resulted in a headdown or unstable deployment of the reserve at a higher than normal speed may have helped the reserve to malfunction.
The jumper never really felt comfortable after this event and has not jumped much since.

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[mikkey 0]

I am a believer in always doing a cut-away first if you have touched/deployed the PC - and if in doubt cut-away first. I had a PC in tow many years ago (wrapped around container I think) and as I went for the cut-away handle and started pulling the main started to deploy (probably because of changed body position) - it was too late to stop the process - so I continued the cut away and deployed reserve. If I had gone for silver in that situation, I probably would have ended up wth an entangled main and reserve - and kissed my arse good buy.
So if you "touched" nothing (i.e. cant find handle/hacky) or cant pull it out of pouch etc. - go for silver. If you have anything in the air, cut away first. Entanglement is too big a risk.

Just my 2 Cents.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[skymick 0]

See what the BPA recommend in regards whether to always cut away or not. I know in Australia the APF recommend that you always cut away first (time permitting). Also think about this: what if you have a hard pull (or dont grab the handle properly) and end up with your PC almost all the way out of the pouch when you go for silver? You wouldnt want it falling out on deployment and having it pull your Dbag out....

Cheers

[sundevil777 93]

If the in-tow clears/container opens due to opening shock, cutting away first or not doesn't matter because the main is opening behind you.

If the in-tow clears/container opens because of reduced tension as the reserve lifts, I believe it is not at all so certain that you are better off to have your main pulled past the deploying reserve. A departing main can pull the reserve slider up, etc...

What is certain is that when I had an R3 on one side release on a funneled exit, I should have released the other side and deployed the main, then gone for my reserve. The thought of that riser and hardware piece trying to grap my undiapered 26 navy conical at terminal is unsettling. Then the oscillations threw me down backwards on my back with that big main still there at the bottom of my back (ouch!) No reason I should not have gotten rid of it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Craig 0]

Quote

If the in-tow clears/container opens due to opening shock, cutting away first or not doesn't matter because the main is opening behind you.

If the in-tow clears/container opens because of reduced tension as the reserve lifts, I believe it is not at all so certain that you are better off to have your main pulled past the deploying reserve. A departing main can pull the reserve slider up, etc...

Lets think of another possibility. If you have a PC tow and you cutaway an pull the reserve it is possible that the main won't leave the bag because the main is no longer anchored to you (except for maybe the split second before your riser covers come open.) I am not saying this is fact cause anything can happen, but I am thinking the main d-bag would leave just after the reserve freebag. Line-stretch will open the riser covers and the main could stay in the bag. Ya still got the main risers and some lines that should be to the outside of the reserve risers. Again, no hard facts just another way to look at the situation.

[b1jercat 0]

HI andy, jump no 13 for me pull at 5000 nothing out, couldn't find the handle couldn't see the PC. Screaming kinda head down at 3000, thinking I gotta do something, went for the silver, look up to check the canopy at 2000. I believe a PC in tow is the only mal that does/doesn't require a cutaway depending on who you talk to. I didn't recognize my mal at the time, all I knew was no open parachute.
This is just one of my hair'm scare'm experiences and in no way any kind of advice, however I do my handle drills at least 5 times before I get on the plane now days. good luck blue skies
jerry





but I was going to tashe station to pick up some power converters

[Faber 0]

in DK we need to get our gear cheked atleast 1 timer pr year,by a rigger.I do belive a failur as 1/2 of the line breaks/or other so big erro on a reserve will be discovered.
we can also NOT use á reserve as a main and then swift it back as a reserve,therefore i have never meet a reserve whith more than 10 jumps on it.I have never seen a canopi were it felf apart after that small amount of jumps.They also have been TSO tested,and should be stronger than a regular main(i know this my not be correct,but i do belive that mains dont get the same test,so on paper the reserve is stronger)

if you have similar rules then i agree the guy should have a new reserve(hopefully choosen by him self),while he survived.If it were me they could send flowers and an apolligy to my family.

I still mean you should cutaway any mal you ever have and will continiue so.

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[rigging65 0]

Quote

So if you "touched" nothing (i.e. cant find handle/hacky) or cant pull it out of pouch etc. - go for silver. If you have anything in the air, cut away first. Entanglement is too big a risk.

Yeah, but look at the statistics out there. Basically, all the tests PD did showed that two canopies out almost always opens into something stable. Whereas, allowing lines to go limp after being under some pressure (as in, a now inflating main that has already been cutaway) leaves a lot of spaghetti floating around near your reserve. Unordered lines, flowing freely, seem to have a far greater chance of causing an entanglement than does a second canopy opeing under line tension in an orderly manner.

Of course, this is all based off the test work of one company...but they seem to have a pretty good track record when it comes to canopy testing.

As for myself personally, I tend to evaluate each problem based on it's own situation and make my decisions based on that. This is NOT the way I teach my students, but I spend enough time around gear and skydiving (like every single day) that I feel in-tune enough to work out my canopy problems without using too much of a formula.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[mikeat10500 9]

Quote

Ah yes, this thread again...

We teach to put out the reserve straight away on anything where your container isn't open and you haven't slowed down or changed body orientation. That's how we define a "Total".

The reason is simply that you don't want to waste time while at terminal. Another reason is that if the main does fall out of the container after the reserve inflates, you'd like to have control of it. Most two-outs stabilize themselves and aren't a problem on deployment, but if you've already cutaway your main, the risers may slide up the reserve's lines and choke it off or somehow foul the good canopy. As we teach it, you'd want to have control of the situation so that you can make the call as to what you're going to land under...one or two canopies.

I'm actually in favor of teaching to always cutaway from a simplicity standpoint, but I've never liked the idea of teaching one thing to students and another thing to up-jumpers. Most people tend to revert to their initial training under stress, so why not teach it correctly and thoroughly the first time? Just my 2 cents...

All very good points...worth more than 2 cents !
...mike

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

[riggerrob 558]

If you are dropping static-line or IAD students, teach them to always cutaway then pull reserve.
This is because s/l and IAD students will always have some of the main overhead.

It gets a bit more complicated with freefall students, but let's return to the basic logic. If they cannot find or pull the main handle, then they are safe to go straight for the reserve ripcord.

The only grey area seems to be a pilotchute-in-tow. USPA recommends getting flat and stable (difficult for a scared student), then pulling the reserve ripcord.
However some schools teach students to cutaway from all malfunctions simply because they do not want students to waste time trying to remember two different procedures.

When we consider the scenario of the main handle being pulled, but not inflated, let's consider the angles. If you have not felt line stretch by three seconds after tossing your main pilotchute, chances are you are not going to.
I don't worry too much about main/reserve entanglements in this scenario because the main is unlikely to leave your back until after the reserve container is empty. This gives your reserve an immediate lead of a second. The reserve has an additional advantage because it is designed and packed to inflate far faster. So chances are that your reserve will win that race and inflate overhead before your main has gotten to line stretch.
Once your reserve starts to inflate, it starts to move forward, which means that your main will inflate somewhere behind you, clear of your reserve.

PD's study showed that popular student mains and reserve tend to play well together.
Two canopies out at the same time only becomes a problem with small canopies. This is one area where emergency procedures change when you transition from student gear to sport gear.
Another area where emergency procedures change is line twists. Line twists with most student canopies are a non-event. half the time they clear themselves as the student looks up to check canopy. In any case, it is easy to spread risers and kick out of line twists with student canopies.
However, your reaction to line twists should change radically when you transition to canopies loaded more that 1.5. Sometimes line twists on heavily-loaded (more than 1.5) are unrecoverable and the only solution is cutting away, closely followed by pulling the reserve. But you have to learn the difference between recoverable and unrecoverable line twists when you transition to faster canopies. This is where emergency procedures become more complicated.

As for the torn up reserve damage suffered by the Texan student: First, which model was it?
Secondly how heavy was he loading it?
Thirdly, if he was over-loading it, then it sounds like a management problem.

In conclusion, if you hav enot felt line stretch by the third second after tossing your main pilotchute, look up. If you cannot see your main, pull more handles, preferrably cutaway closely followed by reserve ripcrod.