what kind of stuff can you do on AFF solo jumps?

[chemist 0]

Sorry if this has been posted before but what is the general view on students trying manuevers on solo jumps such as upside down flying, sitting in a chair position, flying on your back, etc...

Once you get to AFF solos you realize nobody is watching and it is tempting to try some fun stuff but I wonder if it is frowned upon?? Does it vary with DZs?

[DocPop 1]

chemist

... you realize nobody is watching and it is tempting to try some fun stuff but I wonder if it is frowned upon??

Whatcha got in mind?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[NorrinRadd 0]

chemist

Sorry if this has been posted before but what is the general view on students trying manuevers on solo jumps such as upside down flying, sitting in a chair position, flying on your back, etc...

Once you get to AFF solos you realize nobody is watching and it is tempting to try some fun stuff but I wonder if it is frowned upon?? Does it vary with DZs?

I was wondering the same myself. Though to be honest, I am pretty sure I am going to try and get a bit of coaching during those jumps....

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[peek 20]

chemist

Sorry if this has been posted before but what is the general view on students trying manuevers on solo jumps such as upside down flying, sitting in a chair position, flying on your back, etc... Once you get to AFF solos you realize nobody is watching and it is tempting to try some fun stuff but I wonder if it is frowned upon?? Does it vary with DZs?

I think most instructors/DZs would rather see you practicing things that you have done on AFF jumps, to try to perfect them, or to try other things related to getting your license. For example, tracking long and straight, doing precise turns, etc.

Some of the things you want to do will depend on how "freefly-friendly" your student rig is, and you will need to ask someone about that, so be prepared for them to tell you "no" to some things.

[FlyBear 1]

Do some bellyflying and some turns, saltos etc. just like you did in AFF course. I know things like that get boring after a few jumps, but it just makes sense.

You need to learn how to get stable for deployment so you get yourself out of the belly-to-earth position and try to become stable again. That should be the priority during your first solo jumps.

And please don't freefly the student rigs without permission. I've seen some guys at my dropzone freeflying those 260ft² canopy containers. Bigger than them and not freefly friendly at all. Don't do that.

[dthames 0]

Watch the ground and your altimeter. Not much time to really learn how the ground looks on most AFF jumps. Learn what 8,000, 6,000, 4,000 look like.

Maybe perfect some of your exits.

Solo tracking, also lets you watch the ground a lot. Plan a flight course away from others and fly it. Learn to quickly know what direction you are headin, where you have been, and where the jump run where the other jumpers are.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[Caipirinha 0]

Same kind of question, but than under the canopy.

I'm still quite untrusty under the chute, but this is mainly because I don't know how much it can take. It's a student rig, so a big one, but my turns are really slow as I don't know how much it can take (and simply because these are my first jumps).

I see people coming down in spirals, of course I'm not going to do this (well at least not till I have my own parachute), but can I do more drastic turns?

And can a chute collapse under such maneuvers? Or can it take quite a lot? What are the factors?

Thanks!

[faulk04 0]

Caipirinha

Same kind of question, but than under the canopy.

I'm still quite untrusty under the chute, but this is mainly because I don't know how much it can take. It's a student rig, so a big one, but my turns are really slow as I don't know how much it can take (and simply because these are my first jumps).

I see people coming down in spirals, of course I'm not going to do this (well at least not till I have my own parachute), but can I do more drastic turns?

And can a chute collapse under such maneuvers? Or can it take quite a lot? What are the factors?

Thanks!

sounds like a good discussion topic between you and your instructors!

[JeffCa 0]

Caipirinha

Same kind of question, but than under the canopy.

I'm still quite untrusty under the chute, but this is mainly because I don't know how much it can take. It's a student rig, so a big one, but my turns are really slow as I don't know how much it can take (and simply because these are my first jumps).

I see people coming down in spirals, of course I'm not going to do this (well at least not till I have my own parachute), but can I do more drastic turns?

And can a chute collapse under such maneuvers? Or can it take quite a lot? What are the factors?

Thanks!

Not an instructor, but these are my thoughts. Don't be afraid of it! It's a student canopy, it can probably take anything you could possibly think of doing with it. I tried everything I could think of with mine when I was up high. Check your airspace, then pull down hard with one side, as hard as you can, and do 5 or 6 spirals. Feel what happens to your body when you spin hard for so long. Try pulling out of spins by letting up on that toggle, and then try getting out next time by pulling hard on the other toggle. Pull your rear risers as hard as you can and feel it flatten the glide. Pull your fronts, if you can, they're fricking hard to move on large canopies. Try going to half brakes with both toggles and turning by pulling one toggle down even further. Then do the same with both toggles starting at 75% brakes. Feel the difference in the turns? Pull down both toggles as hard as you can and try to stall it. My understanding is that student canopies generally cannot be stalled with normal pulls, and mine couldn't. I had to wrap the steering lines around my hands to get enough pull to stall. Feel how slow and quiet the canopy becomes when both arms are pulled down as far as they can possibly go without dislocating your shoulders. It's pretty cool. You're up high, so even if you did manage to screw something up, you'll get to experience your first reserve ride.

My own first canopy has just arrived and very soon I'll be trying all of these things on it for the first time to learn how it flies. (Beer!)

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[Ron 7]

I'd suggest hop n pops to work on canopy control and to get rid of any door fear from 'low' exits.

Think about it.... If the engine quits at 1500 feet the pilot might tell you to get out. If you have never left the door under 5k.... You might wait and that might kill you or someone else.

There is plenty of time to learn to do center point turns and freefly.... Work on saving your life early and often.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[andymarch 0]

I mostly did tracking, docking and sit-flying as a student :)
For better deployments you can practice stable flying with one arm behind your back.
Also if you have some tunnel time, you can do a few fun belly jumps with your D-licensed/Coach rated friends (up to 4-way with ratio of one student to one experienced jumper permitted).

[Divalent 89]

For all your solo jumps, it's smart to have a plan worked out in advance to work on skills in all 4 phases of the jump:
- exit
- freefall
- canopy practice (from opening down to where you enter the pattern)
- landing

(And you should get help from your instructors in making your plans, and advice on how to do things).

Exits:
For however many jumps it takes you to perfect it: exit and try to keep the plane in sight for 5 seconds as you fall facing the line of flight. This is good practice to give you confidence for when you have to do your hop-n-pops. (As it gets close to the time when you will be doing your hop-n-pop, throw in a practice PC touch after 2 sec.) Exit different ways: sometimes a floating exit, sometimes leaping out of the plane from inside.

Freefall:
Work on improving your stability and mobility. Get unstable every way you can think of and then recover. Work on making precise turns using your legs. Try changing your fall rate by getting spread out/dearched to slow yourself, and getting small/hard arch to speed up. (Its hard to tell your fall rate when by yourself, but the point is so that you feel comfortable and stable when not necessarily in your usual falling posture.) Work on your tracking form and technique. (Note: if you track, make sure you do it perpendicular to the line of flight (which means you have to look down to determine what the line of flight is before you go somewhere)). Make sure you remain altitude-aware.

Under canopy:
Check the A-lic card for things you need to perform to get your license. (Front and rear riser turns, stalls, etc.) Also work on flat turns. Be sure to be mindful of where you are and who/what is around you.

Landing: based on ground winds, plan your pattern in advance: pick out the point and altitude where you will start your downwind leg, and make sure you get there. (Make sure your plan is what others will be doing.)

Note: there is nothing wrong with having fun (e.g., a bomb-out flipping exit is fun to throw in every now and then), but you eventually want to get to the point where your skills make you someone that others want to jump with (and from a safety standpoint, are willing to jump with) when you get your license. Solos are an opportunity to develop your skills.

[J-S 0]

chemist

Sorry if this has been posted before but what is the general view on students trying manuevers on solo jumps such as upside down flying, sitting in a chair position, flying on your back, etc...

Once you get to AFF solos you realize nobody is watching and it is tempting to try some fun stuff but I wonder if it is frowned upon?? Does it vary with DZs?

Don't worry about free flying yet. The speeds are increased, you could slide into another groups airspace not knowingly (lack of any experience) and possibly kill yourself or others. There's already enough ways to get yourself hurt. FF will be there when you're ready.

As others have said practice what you we're taught, get use to the sights and sounds, pulling stable, on time as planned, etc.

During my first couple jumps I thought I was "safe" when my canopy opened and was square/flyable/landable. The more I listened and read (dz.com) I realized you're not "safe" until everyone had landed. I set my first goals to be the best canopy pilot I could be for my experience level to hopefully avoid a possible canopy collision, land in a bad spot or on someone.

I did a lot of H&Ps after AFF, some at full altitude (super fun), to get to know the limits and boundries of my canopy. I asked instructors to give me ideas what to try up high/different landings in different conditions and to watch and critique each landing.

Know your limits, ask about everything first before you try it (not on dz.com, but from your instructors first), respect the mistakes from the fallen and learn/practice as much as you can. The reaper is right behind you waiting for you or someone else to make a mistake. Don't try too much too fast, you can achieve your goals/ambitions of FF with time, experience and practice. Know the basics to save your ass first, pulling stable on time and making your canopy your savior.

Just my .02 cents from a 284 jump jerk, but I can relate because I wanted to do a lot at first too, the jumpers I respect showed me how to get there.

[rohicks 2]

JeffCa

***Same kind of question, but than under the canopy.

I'm still quite untrusty under the chute, but this is mainly because I don't know how much it can take. It's a student rig, so a big one, but my turns are really slow as I don't know how much it can take (and simply because these are my first jumps).

I see people coming down in spirals, of course I'm not going to do this (well at least not till I have my own parachute), but can I do more drastic turns?

And can a chute collapse under such maneuvers? Or can it take quite a lot? What are the factors?

Thanks!

Not an instructor, but these are my thoughts. Don't be afraid of it! It's a student canopy, it can probably take anything you could possibly think of doing with it. I tried everything I could think of with mine when I was up high. Check your airspace, then pull down hard with one side, as hard as you can, and do 5 or 6 spirals. Feel what happens to your body when you spin hard for so long. Try pulling out of spins by letting up on that toggle, and then try getting out next time by pulling hard on the other toggle. Pull your rear risers as hard as you can and feel it flatten the glide. Pull your fronts, if you can, they're fricking hard to move on large canopies. Try going to half brakes with both toggles and turning by pulling one toggle down even further. Then do the same with both toggles starting at 75% brakes. Feel the difference in the turns? Pull down both toggles as hard as you can and try to stall it. My understanding is that student canopies generally cannot be stalled with normal pulls, and mine couldn't. I had to wrap the steering lines around my hands to get enough pull to stall. Feel how slow and quiet the canopy becomes when both arms are pulled down as far as they can possibly go without dislocating your shoulders. It's pretty cool. You're up high, so even if you did manage to screw something up, you'll get to experience your first reserve ride.

My own first canopy has just arrived and very soon I'll be trying all of these things on it for the first time to learn how it flies. (Beer!)

Please don't do that stuff without taking a canopy course first to have the proper instruction to stall your canopy and recover it. Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student, you are still learning how to set up proper landing patterns, and look out for traffic. I foresee bad things happening... Ask your instructors do what they say.

As for what my progression is/was after AFF recently; here is a list of things I did.

1. I did a coach jump right off of AFF practiced docking and tracking - http://youtu.be/w0z8ZPIiRzQ - I didn't feel comfortable exiting alone with just me and the sky so the coach jump was a good way to transition into being on my own.

2. I did a couple full altitude jumps where I just fell belly to earth. Checking altitude and enjoying the view. Getting comfy being one with the sky.

3. I did my 5,500 and 3,500 hop n pop in the same day.

4. I bought a full face helmet and did a few more full altitude jumps to get used to using one.

5. I did another coach jump practicing docking, tracking, swooping, free fall rate adjustment, and spotting.

6. I did a couple full altitude jumps with my new VISO 2 digital altimeter with my analog altimeter in front of it so that I could slowly ween myself into my digital VISO altimeter. The very first time I jumped with my VISO and my analog together i looked at my digital the first time in free fall and I mis read it at 9,000ft. I thought it said 3,000 so I started to deploy. I checked my analog right before I pulled it all the way out and realized I was wrong and tucked the PC back in the BOC. After a few jumps of using both i felt comfortable reading my VISO and I started using my VISO solely. My point is always get used to one new piece of equipment first by doing a few jumps with it before adding something else new. During these jumps I practiced tracking on a heading towards the airport and off jump run.

7. I did another coach jump practicing exactly what i did for #5 - http://youtu.be/y-_5z-unfsY

8. Since that last coach jump on #7 I've pretty much done all hop n pops from 5,500 ft to work on accuracy. to which I'm still struggling with. Make every jump an accuracy jump!

In between all of this I had line twists on jump #13 with a toggle fire that sent me into a spin. That was my first cutaway jump. ALWAYS practice your EPs!

I also have had 25 minutes of tunnel time throughout these jumps.

I've also practiced exiting numerous different ways on each jump. Flips, backwards, superman/bomb out/dive out exits, poised exits, etc.

I also took a packing course, and then just took a canopy course 2 weeks ago.

Hopefully that gives you a few ideas to do while progressing up to your A.

[devildog 0]

All the cool fun stuff requires a solid foundation if you want to go anywhere with it. Build your base skills. Getting into the habit of trying things when no one is looking is bad mojo. It'll catch up to you sooner or later, and not necessarily a simple, "Hey, don't do that."

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[nigel99 143]

Firstly the country you are in makes a big difference. The US is much looser than some other countries, for example here in Australia you are not allowed to freefly which includes sit flying.

But as Ron mentioned, hop and pops are great. Practising freefall manoeuvres is good, but really you should work on these with a coach/experienced jumper. I think it is too easy to develop bad habits when you're so early on in your jumping.

Another idea is simply to relax and enjoy the jump and view. Take in the beauty, feel the wind, breath deep and relax.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[chemist 0]

rohicks

In between all of this I had line twists on jump #13 with a toggle fire that sent me into a spin. That was my first cutaway jump. ALWAYS practice your EPs!

You had a cutaway on your 13th jump?! That's messed up man I hope you're not superstitious

[pchapman 261]

On the one hand, full-on extended back & sitflying will probably be discouraged. On the other hand, when you learn to do basic maneuvers like unstable exits, barrel rolls, or backloops, you are expected to sometimes end up on your back accidentally for a short while.

So I don't see harm in a little bit of playing with going on your back, to try out the different feel of not being on your belly, and work on recovering to your belly.

Naturally for a student, some discussion with an instructor etc. is still needed to cover issues like gear suitability and sliding around the sky up jump run.

[excaza 1]

rohicks

Please don't do that stuff without taking a canopy course first to have the proper instruction to stall your canopy and recover it. Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student, you are still learning how to set up proper landing patterns, and look out for traffic. I foresee bad things happening... Ask your instructors do what they say.

While caution is always to be encouraged, this is a bit much.

There is no problem with investigating your canopy's performance envelope provided you receive a proper briefing from someone qualified to do so. This doesn't require a canopy course (though they're awesome and everyone should take them all the time). There is also nothing wrong with spiraling nor stalling given sufficient altitude and airspace. Your AAD is not going to fire at 3000 feet. The problem with newer jumpers spiraling down, besides maybe not doing the most perfect job clearing their airspace, is that it puts them in the pattern with experienced jumpers at a higher wing loading and congests the pattern. It's advisable to do all of this kind of canopy work on hop & pops to avoid this.

[nigel99 143]

Quote

6. I did a couple full altitude jumps with my new VISO 2 digital altimeter with my analog altimeter in front of it so that I could slowly ween myself into my digital VISO altimeter. The very first time I jumped with my VISO and my analog together i looked at my digital the first time in free fall and I mis read it at 9,000ft. I thought it said 3,000 so I started to deploy. I checked my analog right before I pulled it all the way out and realized I was wrong and tucked the PC back in the BOC. After a few jumps of using both i felt comfortable reading my VISO and I started using my VISO solely. My point is always get used to one new piece of equipment first by doing a few jumps with it before adding something else new. During these jumps I practiced tracking on a heading towards the airport and off jump run.

I'd really like to hear from a couple of instructors on this? Something tells me, it was a bad idea but I can't really sensible alternatives.

Otherwise I think there is alot of good advice in your post. Especially get used to one piece of equipment at a time.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[JeffCa 0]

rohicks

***
Not an instructor, but these are my thoughts. Don't be afraid of it! It's a student canopy, it can probably take anything you could possibly think of doing with it. I tried everything I could think of with mine when I was up high. Check your airspace, then pull down hard with one side, as hard as you can, and do 5 or 6 spirals. Feel what happens to your body when you spin hard for so long. Try pulling out of spins by letting up on that toggle, and then try getting out next time by pulling hard on the other toggle. Pull your rear risers as hard as you can and feel it flatten the glide. Pull your fronts, if you can, they're fricking hard to move on large canopies. Try going to half brakes with both toggles and turning by pulling one toggle down even further. Then do the same with both toggles starting at 75% brakes. Feel the difference in the turns? Pull down both toggles as hard as you can and try to stall it. My understanding is that student canopies generally cannot be stalled with normal pulls, and mine couldn't. I had to wrap the steering lines around my hands to get enough pull to stall. Feel how slow and quiet the canopy becomes when both arms are pulled down as far as they can possibly go without dislocating your shoulders. It's pretty cool. You're up high, so even if you did manage to screw something up, you'll get to experience your first reserve ride.

My own first canopy has just arrived and very soon I'll be trying all of these things on it for the first time to learn how it flies. (Beer!)

Please don't do that stuff without taking a canopy course first to have the proper instruction to stall your canopy and recover it. Especially don't attempt the spirals when your AAD is set on student, you are still learning how to set up proper landing patterns, and look out for traffic. I foresee bad things happening... Ask your instructors do what they say.


As another poster already wrote, this is off-base. You don't need a canopy course to pull your toggles hard and tug your risers up high. Much of this is required for A-licences in the 2 countries where I have taken those courses. Spiraling a few times is not an issue (with clear airspace), and at student pull heights is just fine. The AAD will not activate so high. Why did you think I was encouraging spiraling at +/- 1000 feet? I wrote "up high" twice. I was doing this stuff at 4,000 feet as a student. A student canopy will also not stall so easily, pull the toggles as hard as you want up high and see what happens. I wasn't able to stall either my student canopy or my first rental with regular toggle pulls, even at full arm extension.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[virgin-burner 1]

faulk04

***Same kind of question, but than under the canopy.

I'm still quite untrusty under the chute, but this is mainly because I don't know how much it can take. It's a student rig, so a big one, but my turns are really slow as I don't know how much it can take (and simply because these are my first jumps).

I see people coming down in spirals, of course I'm not going to do this (well at least not till I have my own parachute), but can I do more drastic turns?

And can a chute collapse under such maneuvers? Or can it take quite a lot? What are the factors?

Thanks!

sounds like a good discussion topic between you and your instructors!

this^^

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

once i almost punched a student in the face for doing just that.. he then got grounded by his instructor for the day.

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JeffCa 0]

virgin-burner

once i almost punched a student in the face for doing just that.. he then got grounded by his instructor for the day.

For doing what exactly?

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[DHemer 0]

+1 for canopy exersises
Since 2012 it has become an A licence requiment in SA to perform certain canopy exersises after a briefing
Although very little happens on a student canopy during these manovers it is good to understand the effects
These include front and rear riser turns, flat turns and a stall
If you know what to expect the stall is not that scary

Turns more than 360 degrees are discouraged due to students general lack of altitude awearness and the chance of canopy collisions.

I practised skills like level control and tracking