Not ashamed to say my flare sucks

[MochaSkyChick 0]

I am flying a PD-170 F111 Main with a wing loading of 1:1. I bought it used and it had close to 500 jumps on it. I have 113 jumps and have been jumping it since my 35th jump. I have to say that my flare really sucks, I only stand up about 20% of my landing and that is generally on windy days. To be honest I was tempted not to post this because I felt like with my number of jumps this shouldn’t even be an issue. But I figured it’s better to suck up my pride and get as much advise as possible before I slide in another landing.

I know that I am not flaring as hard as I should be according to people that have witnessed some of my landings. I feel like I am getting the right amount of pressure when I flare but I guess I’m not driving it in as hard as I should. With that said, what do I need to work on? What practices can I do to let myself know….”Yup now that’s a flare?” I’ve been told that it might not be such a bad idea to get someone to video my landings.

I don’t want to get all emo in this post but it’s getting a little disheartening because I’m starting to get to a point that makes me think, “You’re just not getting this so maybe it’s not for you” and this is something I don’t want to think. Skydiving is one of the major joys in my life and it has really opened my eyes to meeting new people and coming out of my shell. It may sound silly but one of my skydiving goals is to be that kick @$$ jumper that you overhear people saying, “If you get a chance jump with her because she knows her $#!%” But how can I be a kick @$$ skydiver if I can’t flare worth a flip. Well I’ll end this before I start ranting more than I have already.
Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks & Blue Skies

PMS #62
Zarza R[red

[Michele 1]

Heya, Mocha...

So, um, I exactly understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. Except I was far worse.

My solution was to get canopy coaching.

Coupla things to think about.

~Do you pull high and practice - really practice - your flare point? Do you know where it stalls? Can you stall it? When does it get "soft and mushy" (I call that the oatmeal moment...).

~How are your brake lines? New? Old? Have they shrunk any?

~Do you know where the pendulum effect is (it's called many different things, but that's the best for me - where you gently swing in front of your canopy like the pendulum on a grandfather clock)?

~Have you gone to people who are good - really good, not just kinda good - at straight in approaches, and asked them to watch you a time or two, and get some pointers from there?

~Why the heck are you ashamed for asking for help? Why be embarassed for getting pointers, advice, tips? There's nothing to be ashamed of for needing help...nothing at all.


You can do this...if I can, you can. I am the most gigantic dork when it comes to landings, but I am learning how. And I am managing.

Try to get some canopy coaching. It is invaluable, and for me, the reason I stayed jumping.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[PhreeZone 14]

Major issue here is your canopy is probally really close to being ragged out. See if you can't find a Sabre 170 to put a few jumps on and see how that changes things. I know a girl that wsa having issues with her flare and was crashing in every jump. Once she got rid of her F111 canopy and got a ZP... the majority of the issues went away and she stands most the jumps up now.

You should be flaring hard and fast enough that you should almost stall the canopy as your feet touch the ground. A weak flare coupled with worn F111 and I doubt many people could stand it up all the time.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Kolla 0]

Hi Mocha-girl!!

Besides on working on your flaring technique, you might want to have the canopy checked out - it is possible that the porosity levels of the canopy are getting pretty high and that could make your flare suffer, even at lower wingloadings.

Also, there are canopies out there that make life for us slightly to moderately "flare-challenged" a LOT better - such as the Silhouette, the Sabre2 and the Spectre, just to name a few good ones. Along with some good canopy coaching, a different model of canopy might be a good move - get something that has a little bit more forgiveness to it than an older PD does.

Hang in there, I'm sure you will come to get a grip of the flare - I did everything backwards for the first 100 jumps or so, but finally got the hang of it

Blue Skies Magazine

[SSkydiver 0]

Hey Mocha,

First of all i dont think anyone who reads your post is gonna just let you quit. Just a couple of weeks ago i put a post in here about my flares because they sucked ass. I got alot of good advice and now am improving. I know how frustrating it can get, bekieve me. I once had an F-111 that i could land good then all of a sudden i couldnt. The parachute was on its last leg. I went to a Sabre2 and was still having problems landing, though not as bad. I'm not gonna give you advice on how to land because i'm still not the greatest at landing and i have less jumps than you. I was doing maybe 30% standups before i put in my post and have had 95% standups since then. Look for my post about page 3 or so and read all the advice i got. I would link it to you but i dont know how. It will help you. We all hope to hear back from you in a couple of weeks to hear about your improved landing. My post is actually on page 7 in the "General Skydiving Discusion". Hope it helps

[phoenixlpr 0]

I think that most of the problem is in your gear. First of all you are flying with the maximum recommended weight . The other factor is your canopy is old. Any F111 has a little flar power compairing with ZP ones. I have about 40 jumps with F111, I was told to start pulling breaks about 2m and I have to reach the stall position when my feet touch the ground. You should consider to change your main.

Safe landings

[poohbeer 0]

Quote

My post is actually on page 7 in the "General Skydiving Discusion". Hope it helps

I think you mean these two GSD: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=495288
S&T: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=495718

------- SIGNATURE BELOW -------
Complete newbie at skydiving, so be critical about what I say!!
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

[skydive84 0]

Hey Mocha!
Without trying to sound like im taking the pi$$, are you actually trying to stand up your landings? I say this because someone i used to jump with had the nicest flare and always stopped at just the right point, she just NEVER put her feet down and always ended up bouncing in on her butt. Just be confidant in your ability and youll kick ass!

Adi

[Chief 0]

1.) Do no quit!
2.) Make sure you finish your flare, all the way!
3.) A coach, with a video of your landings should help a lot. Often it is a very small thing you are or are not doing on finishing your flare.

I had the same problem. Maybe it is your canopy being worn, but with determination and a video, you should be fine.

[ladyskydiver 0]

Don't quit. I've been there and at times am still there.

I second what Michele has said about canopy class.

The other thing that works for me is that when I'm on final, I keep repeating in my head - "Finish the flare." - because I was told that although I was starting the flare, I never finished it when I was trying to land. And it works, and then I stand up my landings. Get your landings on video and you may find that you just are not finishing the flare.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[MochaSkyChick 0]

Thanks SO much for all the advice. I'm going to try opening higher and play with my flare point as Michele suggested and look into doing a demo with a ZP canopy.

Thanks again for all the advice. I'll keep posted as to my progression.

PMS #62
Zarza R[red

[dterrick 0]

Hi Mocha!

ditto for me on the flare thing - flying tired F-111 at 1:1 .. .and a 7 cell at that !! (yecch).

You have two options to solve your issues and I think a demo on a similar sized ZP is the best idea. Since I'm broke I've had to soldier on with my nearly dead Raven and have begun to learn high-performance landings with it (you know, front riser onto final, double fronts, flaaaaare!) under the tutilage of a canopy master.

I too have demo'd ZP from Sabre 210's down to eliptical 170's. The immense flare power difference is an eye opener and, were it not for my belief in the BillVon canopy downsize treatise I'd likely be jumping the 170 eliptical. I'd also likely have several more reserve repacks to my credit considering I can (and do on occasion) fly the big square 7 cell hard enough to spin it up in flight (kids, don't try this at home).

DO NOT become discouraged - you're "stuck" on a little plateau of skills that likely has more to do with your gear than you. Get your confidence back under a suitable demo/loaner, then either replace your main or do as I do - learn to fly it at 11/10ths and keep your rigger and chiropractor as good friends

Dave
PS: what flavour was YOUR pie???

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[MochaSkyChick 0]

Quote

PS: what flavour was YOUR pie???

I made my 100th @ a different dropzone while participating in the GSL meet. I kinda mentioned it @ my home DZ that I hadn't had my pie'ing but still no pie for me. Oh well, guess I'll try again @ my 200th.

PMS #62
Zarza R[red

[tphilpin 0]

Let someone experienced jmp your canopy. An F-111 canopy with 500 jumps may not respond all that well in the flare - so it may not be you at all!

Video is a must for analysis.

Check the tail of the canopy on final with your hands all the way up on the toggles (they should be on final) - The tail of the canopy should not be pulled down at the trailing edge. If so, reset the brake line / toggle position. You must be in full flight for the best flare.

Begin an assertive flare about twice your height above the ground.
You should swing forward under the canopy as the canopy slows and you keep going. If not swinging, either too low or slow on the flare.

Be sure you are finishing the flare with your hands brought down to your thighs and held there. Some people release upon touching the ground.

If you flare too aggressively and end up several feet above the ground at the end of the swing, hold the toggles down and wait. The landing will be quite comfortable.

Good luck.
t

[dterrick 0]

Nuh-uh....

A Century is still a Century - and #100 is THE cetntury... you'll get yours when you least expect it now that they know

Quote

I made my 100th @ a different dropzone while participating in the GSL meet. I kinda mentioned it @ my home DZ that I hadn't had my pie'ing but still no pie for me.

Dave
PS: mine was 'hot turkey pie' garnished with whipped cream and banana

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[andy2 0]

[QUOTE]Begin an assertive flare about twice your height above the ground. [/QUOTE]

I've heard that your flare should begin depending on how fast youre going? I.E. faster = lower flare, slower = higher flare. Can anyone correct me if I am wrong?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

[tphilpin 0]

Andy,

My "twice your height flare point" is that suggested by the PD Professionals for canopys in full flight and is intended for standard landings and not high performance landings.

I confess I am not an authority on high performance landings nor advocate them, and can offer no helpful advice.
Tony

[freakydiver 0]

I found that when jumping at a new DZ out here in Colorado that is the highest civilian DZ in the United States that although I thought I really knew my canopy well, that simply wasn't the case. The first saturday out there really sucked and I ate alot of dirt until I ate my pride and did a few high pulls to figure out where my flare really started and stopped in terms of how far I had to pull my strings. Scratch helped me out bigtime too by watching a couple of my landings i.e. having someone watch and really listening to them can really help out too!

GOOD LUCK and DO NOT GIVE UP!!!

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

The other thing that works for me is that when I'm on final, I keep repeating in my head - "Finish the flare." - because I was told that although I was starting the flare, I never finished it when I was trying to land. And it works, and then I stand up my landings.

Oh my God, I do this, too, Cora! I am/was having similar problems, but when I am focused and talk myself through "finishing the flare" - I stand them!

• Quote

[MochaSkyChick 0]

*Bump*

Just wanted to say Thanks to everyone who gave me advise on my flare and canopy. I'm standing up like 4 out of 5 landings now and it feels great!

PMS #62
Zarza R[red

[conoro 0]

Quote

*Bump*

Just wanted to say Thanks to everyone who gave me advise on my flare and canopy. I'm standing up like 4 out of 5 landings now and it feels great!

Good stuff. Go for it! And ignore all those that say negative things about the PD-170. It's a great canopy (a _Nine_ cell dterrick), very forgiving but good performance, and at 500 jumps it's only 1/3 way through its life (I guess). I've 150 jumps on it and almost all were stand up. Well, vertically orientated anyway. The few that weren't were doozies though - 1:1 is enough to break things and I'm just glad I took billvon's advice and learnt to flat turn low...!
Anyway just wanted to add that I had problems as well with the smaller F-111s. I believe the ZP canopies can mask flare problems by levelling out aggressively but a high flare will still pound you in. A low flare you can get your legs up, flare faster and get away with it. I tried this on the PD-170 by the way. Doesn't work. Have video - it's uuuggly
Ahem. I agree with ladyskydiver and tphilpin there - finish your flare. My problems were: Creeping on the toggles so I could only flare from shoulder height and not finishing my flare. I'd stand it up but so hard my feet would sting and my knees and ankles were getting beaten up. I solved it by looking ahead to the horizon like pilots do rather than down to gauge my height correctly, and repeating "finish the flare". Out loud if necessary (which drew some amused comments but _I_ was walking it out, so there).

Good luck.

Conor.