Safety Question for Tandem Masters.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Sigmas do not have a "trapdoor" effect.

That's funny, since the 2 tandems I did this afternoon on Sigmas sure as hell did have a trapdoor effect.

It isn't as bad as the older Vector tandems, but its still there.

Infact, if a tandem rig is packed correctly, there will be a trap door effect.

Think about the mechanics of it. The tandem pair is "hanging" from the drogue, when the drogue is released, the tandem pair excellerates until close to line stretch, when the tandem pair is stood up from the now deploying canopy.

Unless there is a system that has nearly instant line stretch after releasing the drogue, there WILL be a trap door effect.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Roel 0]

Strong systems use an inflated drogue as an inflated pilot chute to open the container and subsequent opening sequence.

Vector systems collapse the drogue and only use their drag to open the container and subsequent opening sequence.

When pulling the drogue release on Vectors the pulling force on the pin (which was on the 3ring / disk) is lowered (as the drogue collapses). This causes a delay in which you have the sensation of falling away from your drogue.

This happens both on Vector II and Sigma.

You probably know this (I hope).

- - - - - - - - -

We do not stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing!

[skydiverek 54]

Quote

( I am thinking of Strong gear where trap door effect is not an issue.).

What is the "trap door efect"???

[Ron 7]

Quote

( I am thinking of
Strong gear where trap door effect is not an issue. )

Why would it not be an issue?

There is a quick drop right after the TM pulls the drouge release.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

What is the "trap door efect"???

You could do a search on this...

But

When the Tandem Master pulls the drouge release...The pair is no longer suspended under the drouge...So they drop away from the drouge. It is VERY quick. If you are holding on to the hand of one of the pair, you could get pulled right over them.

Under a Vector some say it is worse, but I have jumped both systems, and they feel about the same...I have videoed both (and the Racer) and they all look to be about the same as well.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

I think the horseshoe was caused by the fact that the bag fell out on the step of the Cessna as they were going, and lines from the main subsequently wrapped up on the legs of the tandem passenger... I used to have a picture showing the pair on exit with the lines flailing about, but I can't find it now...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, broken main closing loops used to be a major hazard with tandems until the manufacturers standardized on 1500 pound (?) Spectra closing loops.

In Steve West's death (Canada, late 1980s) the main loop broke while he was on the step of a Cessna. An additional problem was that his container went slack when the main bag left, making it very difficult to pull more handles, to release his drogue.
Steve's photographer tried to be a hero, but died in vain. His photographer would have ben far wiser to back off at 2,000-3,000 feet and save himself.

In another incident (also in the late 1980s) a British tandem instructor tossed his drogue while unstable. The drogue bridle wrapped around his neck and choked him unconscious. The videographer flew in, pulled his reserve ripcord and saved the day. The TI woke up under a fully-inflated reserve.

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

In another incident (also in the late 1980s) a British tandem instructor tossed his drogue while unstable. The drogue bridle wrapped around his neck and choked him unconscious. The videographer flew in, pulled his reserve ripcord and saved the day. The TI woke up under a fully-inflated reserve.

That was Sibson's Ronnie O'Brien who released the reserve on Mike Smith's tandem (Richard Maynard was the student). I have it on video someone. Must try to dig it out and get it uploaded to skydivingmovies.com. Would aslo be interested to see if he pulled the reserve handle or RSL.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

Strong systems use an inflated drogue as an inflated pilot chute to open the container and subsequent opening sequence.

Vector systems collapse the drogue and only use their drag to open the container and subsequent opening sequence.

When pulling the drogue release on Vectors the pulling force on the pin (which was on the 3ring / disk) is lowered (as the drogue collapses). This causes a delay in which you have the sensation of falling away from your drogue.

This happens both on Vector II and Sigma.

You probably know this (I hope).

I know this, I even knew that about the Strong setup. Whats your point?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

Dave, don't want to sound like I'm arguing. Have you jumped the Vector 2 Tandem system?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[crutch 0]

Quote

Dave, don't want to sound like I'm arguing. Have you jumped the Vector 2 Tandem system?

I have to agree with Ron on this one guys. I have jumped four different tandem systems, with well over a hundred on each, all have a trap-door effect on them. Granted the vector's (both sigma and vector II) is more pronounced, I believe this is due to the drogue collapsing before lifting the bag off your back (this however eases the occurences of "line dump" that seem to haunt strong(why it has bungee cords on the bag) and jumpshack(have had more hard openings on) systems). So if you ever pull an unconsciuos tandem master, you might go for a bit of a ride, but the end result will be well worth it.

blue skies,

art

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Granted the vector's (both sigma and vector II) is more pronounced,

I guess I just don't feel the Sigma's as compared to the Vector2. Sigmas feel much more like a natural deployment.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I agree, when I do feel a trap door on a Sigma, I notice it because usually there isn't one. The Eclipse and Vector II have notice-able trap doors.

Derek

[crutch 0]

Quote

I agree, when I do feel a trap door on a Sigma, I notice it because usually there isn't one. The Eclipse and Vector II have notice-able trap doors.

Watch your camera person, or even ask them, they'll tell you it is still there! Maybe not as pronounced granted, but still there.

blue skies,

art

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Watch your camera person, or even ask them, they'll tell you it is still there! Maybe not as pronounced granted, but still there.

Yes, but very little. I had a cameraman sit fly under me at pull time. I waved off and he didn't move, so I thought, "OK, here I come." and we had a trap door (Sigma System). The look on his face was priceless. He did that often with Sigmas and had never gotten caught like that. It is there, but very little, especially compared to the other systems.

Derek

[skydiveacapulco 0]

interesting question to swoop in dock on an unstable tandem, pull the droge releaces or pull the cutaway and reserve handle?

just thinking about my own reserve procedures.

drogue in tow, drogue entanglment,

lots of things for the tandem master to think about.

would i like somebody to save my life to right.

at the expence of his her life dont know if i could live with that but interesting question.

blue sky sand and sun.

[diablopilot 2]

I agree with Hook, I also do video, and really it's nothing like the Eclipse or V2 systems. No more drop out effect than an AFF student or someone pulling out of the center of a formation.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Deuce 1]

My home DZ uses vectors. I have a couple hundred tandem videos on them. I have two at Davis, which uses the Sigma, right jp?

Anyhow, not nearly the "alley-oop" when the main goes. I know this cause I start knee flying when the instructor reaches back to deploy so I can go on my back during the opening. I happened to video jp with Skye on her tandem, and when they deployed I was instinctively ready to do the "alley-oop" move, and they just left, pretty much.

Plus its way easier to see the tandem passenger's face, even if they are looking straight down.

[jeremyneas 0]

Put a Vector drogue on a Strong rig and you'll get the trap door of your life, nothing else compares.

J.Neas

[pds 0]

Quote

So just let the Cypres get it, or dock and pull the handle?

NEVER, EVER EXPECT A CYPRESS TO FIRE.

i dont know what popular consensus is about this particular scenario, but one thing is certain, AAD's should never be depended on.

can you imagine watching two people go in after declining to act?

sorry for yellin, but this hits pretty close to home.

namaste, motherfucker.

[bclark 0]

Because w/ Strong gear when you pull the drogue release the drogue does not immediately collapse. Therefore you do not accelerate appreciably before the container is opened and the bag is lifted off your back. It is comparable to a big giant kill line pilot chute.

[douwanto 22]

A drouge is an ancher so when released you will accellerate until line stretch On any system, some are more pronounced than others because the drouge is collapsed line stretch takes longer, but it is there on all systems.

I have discussed this with my video guys in the past and agree with ( drouge out pull the drouge release,
no drouge pull the reserve )

m2c
Chris

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[Tonto 1]

Should the camera guy pull?

Yes please. I'd like them to go for the main. The idea of landing a reserve rodeo riding on that "deep brake" setting is worse than death - even though I'd be asleep at the time.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[hoym 0]

I have a little over 600 tandems. I've had two premature container openings during drouge fall. Both were caught on video. With the first one, I noticed it right away and I pulled the drouge release handle and had an uneventful, albeit high, good main canopy deployment.

The second one, either I didn't notice it quite as soon or the d-bag lifted off my back more quickly. As the d-bag lifted off my back and while the lines started extracting, the d-bag started barber poling around and around the still attached drouge bridle. So I released the drouge and the main mal'd and we had an uneventful reserve ride.

Even in this situation, I wouldn't mind a heads up cameraman (who is familiar with tandem equipment operation) assisting in an early drouge release in order to avoid a main malfunction and reserve ride.

In response to the original scenario, I agree with most replies that if I was knocked out, I would appreciate assistance from the cameraman with main canopy deployment if the drouge is out or reserve deployment if the drouge is not out.

-mh.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I recently heard about a TI that experienced a hard pull (On a Sigma?) or couldn't find the handle (either of them?), couldn't find the reserve handle or lost altitude awareness and the Cypres deployed the reserve. The drogue was out. Cameraman pulled and followed the tandem down.

Derek

[diablopilot 2]

Sounds like a "mental" mal. Any word on this instructor's experience level?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.