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cgross

Rig downsize

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That was of course back in the days when zp canopies were only for the really experienced jumper and flying something loaded over 1.0 was considered crazy...



Was that because anything has changed about canopies, or are current jumpers just taking bigger risks?

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The smallest canopies I jumped was a sabre and PD 210 (just after student status), until I got my pre-second rig with a hornet 170 in (which I still have).
-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

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Was that because anything has changed about canopies, or are current jumpers just taking bigger risks?



It has more to do with outdated thinking in respect to ZP canopies, canopy flight and a little with canopy design.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I had 200 jumps on my Monarch 135 before I downsized (I weighed ~115). And in retrospect its clear I downsized too fast anyway. I put 500+ jumps on the next canopy before downsizing. I watch lots of people in the 200-1000 jump range being a passenger - not a pilot. They never learned to truly fly their bigger wing before downsizing. That's part of why we see so many injuries under good canopies now - and I'm not talking about the deliberate hook turns - I'm talking about just plain "Oopses.." Everyone will make mistakes - its just better to do it under something that won't kill you. I've lost 3 friends with between 200-600 jumps this year who were flying perfectly good canopies. And this is not an unusual year for me unfortunately. That's why I'm such a hard-ass on people not downsizing so rapidly. I'd like my friends to live through their mistakes.

W

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That's why I'm such a hard-ass on people not downsizing so rapidly. I'd like my friends to live through their mistakes



I wasn't talking about rapid downsizing, I was talking about just a general attitude I've seen from some older jumpers. I know more then a couple jumpers here in Texas that don't think people should be jumping anything loaded heavier then about 1:1, no body. They also think swoopers are crazy.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Thanks Wendy,

I have been doing a lot of reading, and a lot of listening lately. One thing I have noticed is that people feel there is a need to downsize. My question is: Why?

Why not ride what you have to its fullest before moving on. I understand people want more speed and more reaction from their canopy. I understand that, but I get this sense that in this sport people seem to over estimate their ability. I don't think it is a coincidence that many people are killed or injured having between 150 and 200 jumps.

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> One thing I have noticed is that people feel there is a need to
> downsize. My question is: Why?

Several reasons.

1. Everyone else is doing it; if you don't you're a bad, or unskilled, or slow, skydiver. Few skydivers want to be seen as unskilled.

2. You can get a tiny rig if you have a tiny main and reserve. All the good skydivers have tiny rigs, if you ask some people.

3. Some people think you need a small main to get good landings.

4. Some people think you need a small main to make high performance landings.

5. A very few skydivers actually have the skill and training to land a 1.3 to 1 main at 100 jumps; they get used as examples. "If Joe Hotshit can jump that Velocity 89, so can I."

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>Was that because anything has changed about canopies, or are
> current jumpers just taking bigger risks?

Current jumpers are just taking bigger risks. The Stiletto, while a bit outdated, is no more or less dangerous than it was when it was introduced a while back (8? 10? years.) Yet people are going to smaller HP canopies like the Stiletto earlier. This is reflected in fatality stats - fatalities under a perfectly good canopy have been steadily climbing over the last 10 years.

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> They never learned to truly fly their bigger wing before downsizing.

And once they do downsize, they are so terrified of the new canopy that they never learn to fly it. Once they get over their fear, they assume that landing 20 times in a row without broken bones is an indication they have mastered the canopy, and are ready to downsize again.

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I had about 100 jumps on a Sabre 190 before I went down to a Sabre 170, 250-300 jumps on that before going to a Stiletto 150 where I stayed for 800+ jumps... I then went to a Crossfire 129 for about 200, then to a Velocity 103 which is my current day to day canopy. I also jump a Velocity 96 and a Crossfire 119.

I think people seem to be downsizing faster because they are starting off smaller in student status... when I went through everyone jumped a Manta (or similar size)... now one of the student rigs at the DZ has a Sabre 150 in it.

When they finish the student thing, they say "well I jumped x as a student, so I need something smaller, something I can grow in to, or I will be board..." where they should be saying, "I need to find something used the same size I was jumping as a student, then I get something new and smaller after I learn to really fly the first one"

More effort needs to be put in to canopy control training both during and after student status... I have seen people with a license who MIGHT stand up 1 out of 10 landings, and who knows how many people in the patternn they might screw in the process.

Josh
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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That was of course back in the days when zp canopies were only for the really experienced jumper and flying something loaded over 1.0 was considered crazy...



When I started jumping 1978, only really experienced jumpers used 'squares'... the DZ that I trained at wouldn't let you jump a ram air canopy until you were B license level... now we put first jump students out on them.

I have some old parachutist magazines, including one that has the yearly fatality report for 1981 or 82, and I 'd have to go back and look to be sure , but I don't think there were ANY open canopy deaths that year...

I can understand why people want to jump fast canopies, and learn to swoop... it all looks VERY exciting... but it's a new, evolving discipline, requiring specialized training, and very carefully controlled progression to be done safely. And until everybody acknowledges that fact and makes decisions accordingly, we'll continue to have friends hurt and killed under 'perfectly good' canopies.

There are old skydivers, and there are bold skydivers, but there are NO old and bold skydivers! Be safe!!!

"If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got."

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I jumped a PD 9 cell 220 for my first 15 jumps, then downsized to a spectre 150 biggest mistake of my life. Sure now after 20 biffs one fucked up spine and a grass diet (good thing I wear full face or else my teeth would of been tinted green with brown) I get to land and swoop the spectre but was it worth it? NO! 70 jumps on my sleeve and am already fucked up. Ouch!! gotta go take some pills spine still hurting...

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

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When you bought your first rig, How many jumps did you put on your main before your first Downsize?



Well this is turning into an interesting thread. I haven't voted because technically this doesn't apply to me yet. But soon it will and it looks like I'd fall into the 50-100 categories.

You see I'm currently flying a Triathlon 220 (loaded at about 1.07) and I stand up virtually all of my landings. But my pin-point accurancy could be better than what it is. But I also recently took possesion of a Sabre II 190 (loaded at about 1.23) but I haven't used it yet (mainly because I'm still waiting for the risers, dbag and pilot chute to show up). Now the plan is that I am going to slowly start flying the Sabre while continuing to fly the Triathlon. What I mean by that, is that I'm initially only going to fly the Sabre when the winds are more than 10 mph. And once I get more acclaimated to the Sabre I'll start jumping it in lower winds and ultimately phase out and sell the Triathlon (or keep it and use it for CRW).

Comments?


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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Why not just keep jumping the Tri untill you can have the pin point accuracy?

Then you can change to the Sabre II.

You will have a faster learning curve, if you REALLY learn to fly the canopy you have before you get another....

One other thing, switching from one canopy to another is not a good way to learn to fly either.

Jump the TRI untill you can land in the peas (10M circle 10 times out of 10). Then start to jump the Sabre.

Just my thoughts
Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>Now the plan is that I am going to slowly start flying the Sabre while
>continuing to fly the Triathlon.

I'd recommend against that, actually. Master the Triathalon, then switch to the Sabre and master that - keep the tri for tight landing areas or for demos in the future. It's harder to learn when you keep switching canopies.

>What I mean by that, is that I'm initially only going to fly the Sabre
>when the winds are more than 10 mph.

If you buy a sabre2 loaded at 1.2 to 1, and you need 10 mph of wind to land it, you're not ready to be jumping it (IMO.)

>You see I'm currently flying a Triathlon 220 (loaded at about 1.07)
>and I stand up virtually all of my landings.

I'd recommend working on that. Don't downsize until you stand up _all_ your landings. Also make sure you can:

-flare turn, at least 45 degrees
-flat turn, at least 90 degrees at 50 feet
-land in no wind and crosswind
-land on slight uphill/downhills
-land reliably in a 10 meter circle
-land with rear risers
-make a double fronts and a front riser HP approach

Once you can do all that, you'll be ready for the S2.

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Thanks for the feedback. I should also say that I'm not planning on ditching the Triathlon anytime soon. I've only got 29 jumps on it and I'd like to have at least 100+ before I'm done with it. But those other 70+ jumps will be happening soon as I hope to make 20+ jumps before christmas and another 40-70 jumps while I'm at Eloy.

Now as far as the list of things to work on:

- I haven't tried the flared 45 degree turns.
- I have and can do flat turns.
- I have landed no-wind and some cross-wind.
- I have a couple of uphill/downhill landings.
- I'm not bad, but I could be better with my accurancy.
- I haven't tried landing with rear risers.
- Lately I've been using my front risers a fair amount (up until I'm 15-25 feet AGL).

So I still need some practice, but I have done some of what you talk of. ;)



Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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>- I haven't tried the flared 45 degree turns.

These have two purposes - one, so you can avoid obstacles on the ground (and can turn into the wind if you have to) and two, to make sure you're flying during the flare. Some people just pull both toggles down at X feet to flare; that can work on bigger canopies, but doesn't work at higher loadings. Turning in the flare means you can fly the canopy all the way to touchdown.

- I have and can do flat turns.

Good; these are lifesavers. If you ever get cut off at 50 feet, a flat turn can save your life.

- I haven't tried landing with rear risers.

Shouldn't be too tough with the 220. Try it first on a day with fairly decent winds - rear risers can plane you out but won't slow you down as much.

- Lately I've been using my front risers a fair amount (up until I'm 15-25 feet AGL).

If you release them, and have your canopy recover (i.e. come out of the dive and go back to level flight) a few feet above the ground, you're already doing HP landings. If not, try working down in altitude a bit. Double front riser approaches are about the safest HP approach there is, since you can drop the front risers and flare immediately at any time. And this probably goes without saying, but don't let go of your toggles while using front risers!

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This goes without saying (so why am I saying it) ;) but I'll definitely want to practice the flared 45 degree turns up high before I actually do one. But thanks for the info because I've never thought of doing something like that.



Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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I continued using the student Manta's until I had about 40-50 jumps. I then bought a 135 Tomcat. I didn't fly it right away, I did a rapid downsizing progression (at least from what I've been reading here over the last year or so) to a Sabre 190 for about 5 jumps a 170 for about 20 jumps and a 150 for 3 or 4 jumps. By the way, I weigh 145, I don't know what you'd tack on for my rig to get my exit weight.

I loved each progression lower in size. The added responsiveness and exilliration thrilled me to no end. The added speed on landings scared the hell out of me ;)!! but I loved it. I kept my head about me did straight in approaches with full flares. All my playing with the canopy was done at higher altitudes.

Then I flew my 135 Tomcat!! It was FANTASTIC!!! The landing speed in no wind conditions took a little getting used to however but were no problem.

After about another 20-30 jumps, I got a 135 Stilletto and have been flying it since. That would put me flying the stilletto 135 at about 110-120 jumps. I've done another 100 or so jumps in the last year on my stilletto and the only injuries I've had was a sore ankle from when I ran out a downwind landing in my teva'sB| and fell and a badly scrapped up leg when I did a jump in shorts and a t-shirt and flared a little low and slid on my knees ouch!!

I feel completely in control of my canopy and comfortable under it. I have no intention of downsizing any further anytime soon. I am infact contemplating going to California for the Canopy course over the winter.

I understand the reason people want to downsize quickly, most of the reasons I already mentioned before. I think what kept me safe was my attention to my landings. and flaring when "you get really scared and wait another second"B|lol

Seriously though, as long as you keep your landings well within your personal limits you should be fine.

The hard part is that not everyone knows their own limits and by exceeding them in this sport you can become seriously injured.

Dayle

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My first canopy is a 120sqf Sabre2 (yes, I am very light). I am taking Rickster Powell as an example and will only downsize when there's nothing more to learn on that size canopy.
It's better to eventually make my first swooping mistakes on that canopy before I downsize.

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