New USPA license stuff.

[Ron 7]

Ok I have read some on the wreck about the USPA changing the requirements to get more in step with the rest of the world.

This raises some points.

1. Do you think it should be done?

2. Do you think it is even worth doing?

3. Do you think that it is reasonable?

My answers. They are all my personal opinions.

I think that the license requirements need to be raised, I think the USPA is doing this, but again...my personal thoughts follow.

Yes it should be done. for several reasons. One of them is simply at 200 jumps you are in no way a "Master, or Expert Parachutist". This is a kick back to the days were you were lucky to make 3 jumps a day from a small aircraft.
200 jumps WAS a big deal years ago. Now people can go from student to 200 jumps in less that 6 mths if they have the money/time (not that there is anything wrong with this). But 200 jumps in no way makes you an "Expert".

I don't think that jump #'s alone should be the way to rank people....I do think that is a very good way of showing that you can manage to save your life X number of times. I meet people with 5-7 thousand jumps, and a lot of these jumpers are not the cutting edge jumpers out there...but they have made 5-7 thousand jumps....and in that they have earned my respect. Same goes for "old timers" that have been jumping 20-30 years. I am in awe of these pioneers.

I personally think that the A license should be the same as now. It is a good place to start...However more detail to packing , and spotting. Not just "check the blocks"

B should be 100 jumps. In this day and age 100 jumps is not Advanced. At 100 jumps however you should still be allowed to do all the things that a current C holder can do.

At 200 jumps you should still be allowed to do all of the things a current D holder can do.

C should be 500 jumps. In my personal opinion 500 is an Advanced jumper...He knows enough to handle most situations, and has done enough to be able to handle himself in most situations. This is the jump # that I have seen most (including myself) become aware of the sport. I also think there should be a 2 year time in sport requirement... A lot can be learned by being around DZ's and skydivers. This is the reason that some Tandem makers make this a requirement.

I also think that at this level you should be able to do more than one aspect of the sport. So you should have to be able to show some level of skill in more than one area...IE Freefly and Belly skills, RW and Video, Freefly and CRW, Accuracy and instructor/coach ratings....Swooping, Big ways, Style, Wingsuits, Rigger ticket..Hell, maybe even BASE. Basicly be able to safely do more than one thing. PADI SCUBA diving does this. Most people at this level can already do this, some can't.

D is 1,000 jumps. Gold Wings....This is about equal today as the old 200 jumps. Some people these days are doing close to 1000 jumps a year, but just like the old days not everyone can do this. 1000 jumps shows that you have been able to save your life 1000 times. I also think that there should be a 5 year time in sport also.

I also think that to get ANY license, you should in front of an S&TA or such....Pack in front of them, spot the AC by yourself, and land in a target area. The size of the target to adjust to the license you are trying for. If it's an A...hell just hit the DZ. D, land in the peas.

This would make people be able to pack and spot...2 things every jumper should know how to do.

Of course anyone that currently holds the current license would be allowed to keep them.

But I do think it is time to update them

Ron

Jumping 9 years,
2,500 jumps.
S/L and Tandem I,
PRO rated.
Biggest 110
4 way 14.9 AVG.
2 BASE
30ish T-10 S/L.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhreeZone 15]

Are they licences or award plaques?

A licence grants you the privliage of doing certian things while the rest are just for bragging rights. What would the motivation be for getting your C if your B does everything that you need it to?

Current requirements are a D licence for US nationals, would this need to remain the same or change? Under the new USPA changes it will go to C licence requirements. D is also required for world record attempts. That would have eliminated more then a few jumpers from the new 300 way record unless you changed that too.

Personally for the fun jumper a USPA C licence will do everything that you need to do currently. If you are competing or on a record then you need the D.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 7]

Read what I wrote again...

At the coresponding jump #'s you would be allowed to do what you can do now.

The reason to get the C when you have a B....
To become recognized as Advanced.

Your right most people never would need a D. Even with todays standards. But people still get them.

Its not about bragging rights. Its about aligning the current abilities to the same standards that were set.
It very easy to get 200 jumps now. It was not back in the 70's

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Sonic 0]

I can't speak for the USPA, but the BPA has just introduced the international licence - the current FAI is still the main one for us, and the international one is optional.

-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[PhreeZone 15]

I'm more then D quailified now, but I don't have the D. I have no need to get it, I could care less if I'm called an advanced or a basic parachutist. Unless there is a need like wind limits or ability to do something beyond what my current licence allows me to do, my C is just fine. A D would be for bragging rights alone.

And at a lot of C-182 DZ's 100 jumps a year is still considered damn good. Turbine DZ jumpers seem like they forget the days of waiting for open slots since the students fill up the plane and you might have to wait 5 or 6 loads to make a jump. 1000 jumps is something that only a small fraction of the jumpers out there have.

I jump turbines now and they went south for the winter. My jumping season is only 8 months long, jumpers that can jump 12 months of the year have a hard concept of why getting only 3 or 4 jumps in the winter is sohard with out going south.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[174fps 1]

CSPA has gone some way down this road.
For the C and D you are required to meet
standards in 2 of 5 of RW,FF,CReW,Style,Accuracy.
you can download the reqs fromwww.cspa.ca

All USPA is doing is uping the jump #.

Andrew

[Ron 7]

OK, you don't care about the D (new or old) then don't get it.

Quote

1000 jumps is something that only a small fraction of the jumpers out there have.

According to the Nov Parachutist 6,295 people have attained 1000 jumps. (Of course there are people like you that don't care, and probley have not sent for them).

According to the USPA there are around 34,322 members.

Thats 18% have reached 1,000 jumps. (Now I know that there is a differance between total jumpers to reach 1,000 ever, and current members of the USPA) But I have no idea how to get how many *current* members have over 1,000 jumps.

And 1,000 jumps would be "Master" If everyone could do it, and some in less than a year, how could that be "Master".

Quote

And at a lot of C-182 DZ's 100 jumps a year is still considered damn good

Yep, and in 10 years they could be a "Master".

Quote

jumpers that can jump 12 months of the year have a hard concept of why getting only 3 or 4 jumps in the winter is sohard with out going south

Thats why I moved South. The same reason that guys who live to surf don't live in OK, or guys who live to ski don't live in Florida.

If it is not possible for everyone to reach "Master"...so what? It is not about everyone being able to do it....It is about those who can. (However ANYONE can do it. It is a matter of how much you are willing to give up.)

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Thats 18% have reached 1,000 jumps. (Now I know that there is a differance between total jumpers to reach 1,000 ever, and current members of the USPA) But I have no idea how to get how many *current* members have over 1,000 jumps.

Since you admit you don't know the correct percentage, why are you using worthless figuring to come up a bogus number?

It's not 18%. It's far, far less. USPA has been giving away Gold Wings for what, 30 or 40 years? The current membership lists have no relation to the total membership over 4 decades.

I'd *GUESS* the correct number is closer to 3%, which would support Phreezone's hypothesis.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[kallend 1,623]

If you read your USPA card or the SIM you will see that the terms "Advanced", "Master", etc. are no longer used, and they have not been used for several years.

There is confusion over the word usage by USPA. The "licenses" are more like performance awards than true licenses. Since USPA also has performance awards, that part of the "license" is redundant.

The criteria for the "A" license have been tidied up recently, but the criteria for the others show very little logic when you compare them with the privileges granted.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[riggerrob 558]

It is one thing have licenses that give you bragging rights, but many people will only earn new licenses if they allow them to do new things.
For example: back in 1979 I wrote the CSPA A License exam so I could jump without an instructor.
In 1981 I wrote the CSPA B License exam so I could do bellytive work.
That same year I wrote the CSPA C License exam so I could do demo jumps (subsequently changed).
Then I waited 9 years to write the USPA D License exam so I could attend a USPA ICC.
I have never applied for a CSPA D, because one of the few privileges a Canadian D offers is the right to jump without a helmet and I do not care to jump without a helmet.
I also have never applied for a USPA PRO rating or CSPA EJR because I lost interest in demo jumps a long time ago.
New licenses should be linked to new privileges.
Incidentally, CSPA adopted the new international licensing standards last year. CSPA also has a Solo Certificate that allows PFF grads with more than 10 jumps to jump at their home DZ without an instructor. The solo certificate gives them an easy, short-term goal and gets them over that initial fear of exams. The Solo exam is a list of oral questions.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Would I be sturring the pot here in saying that I'm probably the sort of skydiver that you don't like because:

1) I'm new to the sport and have a decent number of jumps for the five short months that I have been jumping.

2) I am planning doing many more jumps before September 2003 so that I can obtain a "D" License before the requirements go up.

Now before the flamming starts, I want you to know that I don't think of myself as an advanced skydiver or anything like. I still very much feel like a toddler in pre-school about to attend skydiving kindergarden for the first time (the Eloy Christmas boogie). I am much more experienced than I was a few short months ago, but I do realize that I am far from experienced.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanEHdian 0]

It's not about like or dislike - it's about being proficient and capable... to safely and skillfully do the things that each license permits you to do. I see nothing wrong with having high standards for each level of proficiency (license).

...and according to your profile, you got some jumping to do my friend if you'd like your "D" by Sept/03.
By the way, why do you want this license at such an early stage in your skydiving career? Just curious...

Cheers,
CanEHdian

Time's flying, and so am I...
(69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records)

[Ron 7]

well sorry I looked at mine, and it says "Master" on it...

I think it is very funny. I don't think of myself as a master now. I hope I never really do.

But 200 even 500, not even close.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Who said I don't like you?

Not me...

If you can do 1000 jumps in a year great...But it will not make you a "Master" or an "Expert".

I don't care that you are going to try and get the D under the wire. But why are you going to do it anyway?

Since you feel as you say "a toddler in pre-school"...why do you want the D license?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

...and according to your profile, you got some jumping to do my friend if you'd like your "D" by Sept/03.
By the way, why do you want this license at such an early stage in your skydiving career? Just curious...

I know I've got plenty of jumping to do in the next 8 1/2 months (111 jumps to do before I reach 200) but if everything plans out at Eloy during the Christmas boogie the way I hope they do, I will be coming back 120-130 jumps. And based on the fact that I can jump 12 months of the year (maybe not every weekend) here in Colorado and my home DZ is rumored to be getting an Otter soon, getting 70-80 jumps in in an eight month period shouldn't be too difficult.

Now as far as needing a "D" License, of course I don't need it at this time. But since the requirements are going up and there is a chance to get it before they go up, why not? Wouldn't you do the same? If I told you that I could sell you something now for X number of dollars, but in eight months it will more than double in price, would you choose to wait the eight months?

Once again, it will be a long time before I consider myself an expert skydiver. So that's not what I'm getting at.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

well sorry I looked at mine, and it says "Master" on it...

I think it is very funny. I don't think of myself as a master now. I hope I never really do.

But 200 even 500, not even close.

Ron

Is that this year's or an old one? The new ones don't say that, just give a "D" and a number. Take a look at section 3 of the SIM, too. No mention of "Master" in the latest one.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[quade 3]

Tempest in a teapot.

If it were -me- running the world (and clearly it's not), then I would have the USPA licenses match the FAI licenses, but I also would have revised the FAI licenses.

Skydiving has become such an international sport that it only makes sense (to me at least) that all the licenses match up.

In reality, once you have the skills to be competitive or to teach a certain skill to others or enough credibility to be invited on to a "real" demo -- the licenses are all kinda redundant anyway.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Ron 7]

Its just to have it....

I know someone who did a lot of Hop n pops to get her D several years ago. (like 70).

She got her D before a lot of people, but the others were better skydivers.

Why rush? Enjoy the ride...Learn as much as you can. If it happens great, but why rush it?

No, I would not do the same.
The selling/buying issue does not really fit.....different products.

When I started martial arts years ago there were two places I could go. One right down the street from me, one about 20 min away. The one down the street said I would have my Black Belt in 3 years. The other told me I may never get it.

I went to the other one...lots of people went to the first one, and got a black belt in 3 years....I took 4. But I beat them at every competition. It not a race.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I would like to add that I've been jumping a fair amount not primarily because I want/need 200 jumps before September 2003. No I have been jumping a fair amount because I enjoy doing it, and consider myself some what addicted to the sport.

I've also been invited on some jumps (mostly free flying) with some people who are more experienced than myself and at this time I have some work to do before I can close the gap and reliably and safely jump with them. But a goal that I have in the next year is to get better to the point where I can stay with them so that sometime down the road I can start flying a camera (because many of them already do) and this will just make the whole experience so much more enjoyable. I can film them, then can film me and we can all learn from our jumps. But I'm getting ahead of myself as I've got a lot of work to do before I can begin thinking of safely jumping a camera.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 7]

I don't doubt you, I am looking at my actual License. From like 1994.

All I am saying is it not kinda funny that our highest license is 200 jumps? It's not real important what it is called. But I just think that it is so low it does not matter as much if it was harder to get.

And I think they dropped the "Master" durring a night jump debate.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,394]

>If I told you that I could sell you something now for X number of
> dollars, but in eight months it will more than double in price, would
> you choose to wait the eight months? '

So if I tried to sell you a $40 tea cozy, and told you that in eight months it would be $100, you'd be all over that great deal? I wouldn't. I don't need a tea cozy. (Not even sure what one is, to tell you the truth.)

A D doesn't really give you that much in terms of advantages, other than being able to sign someone's logbook with a D number. If that's worth, say, $2000 in extra jump tickets, then by all means do it, but I wouldn't see the need.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

See my post from above. Jumping to get the "D" is not as important as the desire to jump a fair amount to get better due to certain goals I have.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[dreamsville 0]

The issue of what's on the card may go to what ratings you have or whether USPA has revised what they put on it. I have no ratings, just a D license.

My renewal card from the last few months has:
Member #, Expiration, name, 5th year of membership, D license #.

Harry

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[skyboyblue 0]

Quote

I think it is very funny. I don't think of myself as a master now. I hope I never really do.

Ron

If you don't think of yourself as a Master(aka D licensed) then why do YOU have a D??? your profile says you are D licensed. sounds a wee bit hypocritical

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

>If I told you that I could sell you something now for X number of
> dollars, but in eight months it will more than double in price, would
> you choose to wait the eight months? '

So if I tried to sell you a $40 tea cozy, and told you that in eight months it would be $100, you'd be all over that great deal? I wouldn't. I don't need a tea cozy. (Not even sure what one is, to tell you the truth.)

Join the cultured, civilized world: a tea cozy is an insulated jacket that goes over a teapot to prevent heat loss. They are generally decorated.

If you don't make tea in a teapot, you are undeserving lowlife scum anyway.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.