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phoenixlpr

near miss? your thoughts?

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That whole landing area looked like a shit show, I thought I noticed a third jumper going a third direction, or at least a shadow that made it appear that way.

You have that huge field, how hard is it for everyone to do a predetermined box pattern and land all in the same direction, plus or minus 5 degrees. :| I get that people screw up, guilty of it myself, but I get the impression that everyone just lands however the hell hey want.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I am totally new. I was taught that you do your last leg upwind, usually. I am looking at the video on my phone, so the screen is small and I cannot see any windsocks or means of telling which direction the wind is blowing, but it seems to me both cannot be going upwind. Wouldn't it make things less chancy if folks are going in more or less the same direction?
Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

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normiss

Why weren't you flying a left hand pattern like the other jumper appears to have been doing?



There is a no-fly zone one the left side: swoop area/swoop lane.

I was coming there with a right pattern with 320m/220m/120m turning points. I've seen that copy crossing about 90-100m when I was on final.

What difference does it make to fly left or right pattern if someone is crossing the whole landing area crosswind direction?

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Thanks for clarifying what is there for the landing area.

Would that make the other jumper flying a left hand pattern while avoiding the no fly area to be flying a proper pattern?

I have always been taught left hand pattern as a rule unless otherwise specified. No?

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Relatively short clip, so maybe it is not fully "representative", but... I don't see a lot head movement going on from the POV at all - rather, what looks to me like a whole lot of "target fixation". Once glance up & to the left, another up & to the right (looking for front-riser loops?), but not much more.

Why weren't location & direction of all these other canopies, including the "offending" one already located and their (and your potential or not intersecting paths) identified well before this?

This canopy just suddenly "appearing" (and surprising you?) in your direct path (fixated on?) is also - at least from what I can see in this very short clip, a very real part of the problem here as well.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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normiss

Thanks for clarifying what is there for the landing area.

Would that make the other jumper flying a left hand pattern while avoiding the no fly area to be flying a proper pattern?

I have always been taught left hand pattern as a rule unless otherwise specified. No?



How is the direction of the pattern affect getting a conflict at lets say 80m on final?

I admit that I have failed to spotted my "party", but I don't agree the way he/she resolved the conflict and the risk of having a canopy collision was not even spotted by the other party.

It was my 7th day of jumping there, there was a ground/landing person on duty. I have used both left and right pattern according situation, traffic and wind direction. None had any complain about me under canopy, which does not prove me right of course.

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If everyone is entering the pattern in the same direction, you know what to expect.
The other jumper may very well have been thinking "WTF is he doing? He's making a right handish/straight in approach in the middle of the pattern.

Again, I'm counting on a left had pattern, so that could just be what I'm used to and was trained to do.

I don't like the idea of assigning blame per se on something that didn't become an issue so much as a learning opportunity either...
;)

I don't like the idea of "both left and right pattern according situation, traffic and wind direction" landing situation.
I'd land farther out if that were the case. YMMV.

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GooniesKid


Isn't calling that a near miss a misnomer? It should be call a near hit.

I mean think about it. A near miss implies you nearly missed. So the inverse of that is you totally missed?

Anyhow, those dudes should fly the pattern from what was shown.
I feel the same way about unsliced bread. What.. did you slice the bread, then unslice it? Shouldn't it be not sliced bread? Or maybe just a whole loaf? And why do we take a pee? We aren't taking anything... I hope!
Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

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normiss

If everyone is entering the pattern in the same direction, you know what to expect.
The other jumper may very well have been thinking "WTF is he doing? He's making a right handish/straight in approach in the middle of the pattern.

Again, I'm counting on a left had pattern, so that could just be what I'm used to and was trained to do.

I don't like the idea of assigning blame per se on something that didn't become an issue so much as a learning opportunity either...
;)


I take my part of blame. 2 things really scared me. All I saw was a yellow something rushing from left to right when I was on final and the other party did not even noticed or understand the weight of this situation.
That qualifies this positive outcome as a matter of luck.
I've brought it here that some people might learn someting out of this.

Imagine there is significant wind and 2 canopies are flying their base leg, what is the most likely direction they would turn?
Quote


I don't like the idea of "both left and right pattern according situation, traffic and wind direction" landing situation.
I'd land farther out if that were the case. YMMV.



I would not cross the center-line if that would cause conflict with others.

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I started at a DZ that did not specify right or left hand pattern, both were allowed (small turbine dz). A designated landing direction was always called in the gate, and that is what was followed. Even from first student jump, we were taught that when you fly your pattern, be aware of all other canopies flying/landing near you, and if two of you are on base from opposite directions, split the difference and give the other person half the space.

It was never a problem there, but I have since moved to a dz that only flies a left hand pattern (large turbine dz). Both of these dzs have had fairly large landing areas, but I've seen it work where a right/left hand pattern didn't matter. The larger problem in this case is that they didn't see each other/awareness of others under canopy.

I have a fairly light wingloading so no matter if I am first out, I am usually one of the last down. I make a habit of counting canopies/groups as they open/fly. This gives me a general idea of how many canopies are still up with me as I enter my pattern, and I try to know where each is at all times, especially anyone who I have noticed is on level with me. Too often, as people enter their patterns they hone in on LANDING and forget that they are still flying. I can't tell you how many times I give a kick and never get a response. I land far away often, not because I am a subpar canopy pilot, but because I am not going to risk someone taking me out because they were so focused on the peas that they don't see anything around them.

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So is left the norm in most places? Each time I have been down to my DZ they seem to favour right. (learning here, please bear with me) I am assuming by left/right you mean keeping your landing pattern either left or right while doing downwind/crosswind/upwind legs, is that correct?
Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

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DougH

That whole landing area looked like a shit show, I thought I noticed a third jumper going a third direction, or at least a shadow that made it appear that way.


Yup.

Quote

I get that people screw up, guilty of it myself, but I get the impression that everyone just lands however the hell hey want.


Yup.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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We go along with general aviation where the standard pattern is left, unless otherwise designated.

FAR 91.126 (b) 1.

Quote

...you mean keeping your landing pattern either left or right while doing downwind/crosswind/upwind legs, is that correct?


Yes. Left-hand unless otherwise designated.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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popsjumper

We go along with general aviation where the standard pattern is left, unless otherwise designated.

FAR 91.126 (b) 1.



Hey, I don't know what happens at the typical DZ, but I'm not aware of any regulatory link between what aircraft do and what skydivers do. That FAR has no applicability, unless you know something I don't about how the FAR's apply to skydivers (which is possible).

If someone is making up a single pattern to follow and has a choice, sure, they'll probably pick "left" as a standard.

The SIM actually shows no preference.

It mentions both "standard left hand" and "standard right hand" patterns, and indeed for its graphic example of pattern shape and heights, uses a right hand pattern.

It also says that if you come in on a left pattern, stay to the left of the field, and on a right pattern, stay to the right.

So in the absence of DZ rules, I'd expect to be able to come in right or left, whatever suited me for the spot and landing direction and landing location.

Edit: I just don't want to get into some shouting match after landing. "You're supposed to go left, idiot!" "No I'm not, there's no rule abut that" "Yeah but that's the convention" "Maybe here it is but nobody told me and nothing in the SIM says it is!"

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pchapman

I just don't want to get into some shouting match after landing. "You're supposed to go left, idiot!" "No I'm not, there's no rule abut that" "Yeah but that's the convention" "Maybe here it is but nobody told me and nothing in the SIM says it is!"



Different DZs I've come across have mandated a left-hand pattern, mandated a right-hand pattern, stated no preference at all or set a particular pattern depending on the conditions on the day such as the jump run or landing direction. In the last case, there was a big sign at the loading area with a movable arrow and a space where the word 'RIGHT' or 'LEFT' could be inserted to show which pattern applied.

Because this was subject to change through the day, if I was jumpmastering the load I would simply announce to everyone on it what the designated landing direction and pattern were. The JM has to communicate stuff like the exit order in any case, so it should be easy to add this information. I really don't know why we tend to make such a meal of this stuff.

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