Exit Order, Who goes First?

[Ron 7]

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But, there were more freefliers jumping spaceballs in prior years-that meant getting out over the swamp (usually first) and pulling higher to get back to the DZ

This is about the closest GOOD reason I have heard.
But if they could also go last, and pull high and they could have the wind help them back insted of fighting upwind.

As for Ray...

He points out that the 4way team should exit first...and they do at DeLand. Unless there is a gigantic formation on the plane. We have gotten out after a few 16 ways at DeLand. Because they are going to take even more time to climb out then even a 4way team. And if they are the only two groups and the large way leaves before the midpoint of the exit window...the 4way will still be fine. The opposite may not be true.

He has a very good point about canopy size.
But even on the same group sizes will vary. We had 2 on 96 Velocities, two under 120 Stilettos...and our camera guy (Ray) would have a ST107, or a V96 as well.

I have seen one guy in the group with a WAY sub 100, and a guy with a 150 on the same jump.

If you want a tiny canopy (and I do)....You need to be able to fly it in traffic.

And it would be hard to establish an exit order based on canopies.

I have Emailed USPA about this....I am waiting to see what they say. I would bet that they don't do anything about it, and insted differ it to local S&TA's....

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,381]

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Upwind:
Large flat groups
Small flat groups
Large freefly groups
Small freefly groups
Students
Tandem

Downwind:
Large freefly groups
Small freefly groups
Large flat groups
Small flat groups
Students
Tandem
-----------------------

Makes sense as far as exit sep goes, but is there a reason you regularly run downwind jump runs? ATC constraints or something?

We used to have to run jumpruns either W-E or E-W (foreign country to the south) but we tried not to run them downwind. In a King Air we were covering an awful lot of ground during a downwind jump run.

[hagar 0]

There are mountains to the east, north and south. Therefore the run is always east-west. That way those who exit last don't have to worry about the ~2000ft mountain that we now fly over about 20 seconds before exit.

---
PCSS #10

[billvon 2,381]

>There are mountains to the east, north and south. Therefore the run
>is always east-west. That way those who exit last don't have to worry
> about the ~2000ft mountain that we now fly over about 20 seconds
> before exit.

OK, sounds sorta like our DZ at Otay. Downwind jump runs are definitely doable but it's hard to get people to exit that quickly - leaving only 4-5 seconds after a 4-way is a little uncomfortable, even if the higher groundspeed of the plane gives you adequate separation. When we run them downwind we usually have to make more than one pass.

[airsaint 0]

A very interesting program showing the effects of exit order.
http://www.jumptalk.com/ExitOrder.htm
Play with it the results will surprise you.

[PhillyKev 0]

http://www.jumptalk.com/ExitOrder.htm

[seedy 0]

http://www.jumptalk.com/ExitOrder.htm

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[apoil 0]

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I have no idea why, but Headdown goes first at Zhills.

Since you live there you might have asked someone.

Furthermore you have posted an inaccurate statement.
It would be far more accurate to say "headdown USUALLY goes first at zhills"
Because it doesn't always.

The exceptions are when the winds are over 30 knots at altitude, which is when drift is a more significant component compared to other factors.

Zhills also has the occasional cross wind jump run at which time drift is completely irrelevant to exit order.

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I think it should be flat groups largest to smallest.

Then headdown/sitfly groups largest to smallest.

Students and high pullers out last.

I think this way due to freefall drift issues.

Our S&TA says something pretty wise even if it's confrontational - if you only ever do it one way, you are wrong. Lot's of people have been indoctrinated into this drift theory as if it is the only consideration, and anything else is wrong.
That disturbs me. I was taught by highly experienced people that you can make ANY exit order work provided there is sufficient communication.

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Flat groups drift more than headdown groups, this has the potential to cause a flat group to drift over a Headdown group.

Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong.

yes, this is a factor that should be taken into consideration. Other considerations are the size and experience level of the various groups and their canopy sizes.
Larger flat groups, and competition flat groups tend to take a longer time to set up in the door, odds are that the exit-exit timing in this case is sufficient to ensure separation even with drift taken into account.

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Also most headdown groups break off higher, and pull higher than most flat groups.

Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong.

There are only small differences in pull height, but the head down group gets there faster and has already descended a bit before said flat groups are even opening. I know. I've opened and waited to watch the following group open.
They are usually not opening at an altitude below me.

Generally (although certainly not exclusively) Head down fliers fly faster canopies and have more experience in the sport. Enough to be aware of jump run and where they should be flying their canopies to reduce the likelihood of a collision from the group that followed them.

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Thoughts?
Ron

Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong


Avoiding the stackup of high performance canopies following low performance canopies to the landing area is also a safety issue.

Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong

[PhreeZone 14]

>Avoiding the stackup of high performance canopies following low performance canopies to the landing area is also a safety issue.

This only is a safety concern if you have pilots not able to fully control their canopies or those that have the mindset that they have to hook. Lower/slower canopy has the right of way, and you should'nt force some one to get out last just since they are not willing to fly a pocket rocket.

>Generally (although certainly not exclusively) Head down fliers fly faster canopies and have more experience in the sport

Around here freefling starts at about 35 jumps, not near enough experience or awareness to know what to do under canopy with a group coming down on top of them.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[apoil 0]

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So what that does is make me almost always take a go around.....I don't mind, but it is bad to have to have 2 passes when it would not be needed if they just got the fuck out the door.

Ahh the lack of any objectivity reveals itself.

I've been exiting after many an RW group that took it's sweet time getting the fuck out the door. It has nothing to do with exit order. Proper separation can be ensured if everyone cooperates.

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Plus the spot gets screwed when you have a lot of small headdown groups eat up a lot of the jumprun, then a large RW group starts to climb out, and the climb out time is in the middle of the exit window....the climb out, and the count is unusable exit time that is wasted....

What about all the flat solos, just off student status that are now supposed to exit before the freefliers.
Same problem. Sometimes the other people in the plane doesn't suck.
Doesn't mean one exit order is automatically "good" when another is automatically "bad"

Freefall drift is an issue, but isn't the only one.

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As an organizer, if I know my climb out is going to take along time, I start the climb out sooner, so we leave at the begining of the exit, not start at the window....this help eliminate extra passes....

But a Zhills, we climb out when we can, and if it looks like we will not have a good spot, I go around....wasted loads and fuel.

Not all organizers are as considerate as you.
Anyone is in the same situation when they are at the back of the exit order. You look out, and if the spots no good you take a go around. Big Deal.

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Oh well, maybe USPA should put an exit order BSR....hell it is there job to do things like this.

just what we need. More regulations.
BSRs are waiverable. Who'd be the first one to wave that at Zhills? The S&TA.

Ron

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong

I only have one way of assembling my 3-ring releases. Am I wrong?

Sometimes there is only one "best" way to do something. Generally the "best" way to do something can change given unusual circumstances.

I prefer the;

Surfers (if any)
Belly-largest to smallest group
Free-flier-largest to smallest group
AFF
Tandem
Wing suits
High pullers

Exit order.

As the head winds increase on jump run, leave more room between exits. If the first group out is a large belly group, start the climb out eraly enough to allow for the longer climb out time. If the second group is a largish (can't have a lot of large groups on one plane) belly group, the climbout time will ensure seperation. When in doubt, leave plenty of room.

Hook

[Ron 7]

I did ask, and I got really bad answers.

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Larger flat groups, and competition flat groups tend to take a longer time to set up in
the door, odds are that the exit-exit timing in this case is sufficient to ensure
separation even with drift taken into account.

And if they go out first, then they start at the begining of the exit window....If they go after the headdowns then the time they take to climb out is wasted time....Several people smarter than me have said that putting flat first INCREASES the saftey factor....and that putting the Headdown first DECREASES it.....Whats wrong with being more safe?

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Generally (although certainly not exclusively) Head down fliers fly faster canopies and
have more experience in the sport

I doubt this....Flat has been around A LOT longer. And most of the people I jump with (Flat) have small canopies.

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Enough to be aware of jump run and where they
should be flying their canopies to reduce the likelihood of a collision from the group
that followed them.

Now I don't fly headdown, but I do 4way....and when I am really turning points I will be the first to tell you that I can't skydive at that speed, and remember the line of flight....I am betting that serious headdown loads can't either.

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It would be far more accurate to say "headdown USUALLY goes first at zhills"
Because it doesn't always.

The exceptions are when the winds are over 30 knots at altitude, which is when drift is
a more significant component compared to other factors.

Why only with high winds????? What is the majic windspeed?
If it is safer to do it with flat first, and even more safe to do it when the winds are high, why ever change it?

Also like I said several people WAY smarter than me say its better (Brian Burke, Kallend, Windsor...ect) and the BSR's state to put the Slower falling groups first.
(Section 5-7 in spotting)

So eveyone else is wrong?

And no one has yet to give me a good solid answer.

Yes, it can be done headdown first....All I am saying is it is not as effective with the plane having to take go arounds, or as safe as putting Flat out first.

So why do it?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[apoil 0]

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This only is a safety concern if you have pilots not able to fully control their canopies or those that have the mindset that they have to hook. Lower/slower canopy has the right of way, and you should'nt force some one to get out last just since they are not willing to fly a pocket rocket.

why not? We "force" them to get out last when they are on a student canopy?
Not to mention that's a twisted way of putting it.

The performance canopies are going to get down and get out of the pattern. That's a good thing. We're not talking about the "have to hook" mentality, but be realistic, if you are flying a fast canopy you are going to land it fast, and quite possibly crosswind. It's out of a concern for everyone's safety not to disrupt the slower pattern with this behavior.

And let's not even get into discussions of folks on their 170's spiraling down in the pattern and then stopping.

***

hmm.. That sounds like a training issue at your dz.
Guess we need yet another BSR.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The performance canopies are going to get down and get out of the pattern. That's a good thing. We're not talking about the "have to hook" mentality, but be realistic, if you are flying a fast canopy you are going to land it fast, and quite possibly crosswind. It's out of a concern for everyone's safety not to disrupt the slower pattern with this behavior.

And let's not even get into discussions of folks on their 170's spiraling down in the pattern and then stopping.

Sounds like a training issue at your DZ.

SDAZ has an awesome system for keeping the landings safe. First person down sets the lnading direction. If you do not wish to land in the same direction as the first person that lnaded, you can land away from the main landing area, in any direction you wish. The only problems I saw was when people did not follow the rules.

Hook

[PhreeZone 14]

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why not? We "force" them to get out last when they are on a student canopy?
Not to mention that's a twisted way of putting it.

How many students do you see pulling every jump at 2500 feet? Students out last is more of a pull height concern then a canopy size.

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hmm.. That sounds like a training issue at your dz.

Yep.. its the DZO and STA doing the teaching too, and the DZO's not to shabby for 12000+ belly jumps first

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Ron 7]

And for canopy size issue....you have a Nitron 120...I have a Stiletto 107 and a Velocity 96....

Steve J has a V90, Box has a V84....So if we are doing a 3 way we should get out before you, Mr Berry, and Pip right?

What if Steve, Box, me, and say Oren with his "big" 136 go out with Annie (136) and Laura (135) together?

It is an issue of the freefall drift....Zhills is plenty big for a 100 way to land safe....an otter load would be no problem.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,621]

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Oh well, maybe USPA should put an exit order BSR....hell it is there job to do things like this.

Ron

It's already there.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

yeah thanks its in Spotting 5-7.

I was looking at the wrong section....


It does say to have Slow then Fast.....

Like I said before I have heard several reasons to do it this way, and not one good reason to do it the other.

But it will not change until the DZO, and S&TA change...
So until then I will take go arounds if I must. It just seems strange to go against what 90% of the community says is safe, and with out a good reason.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,621]

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[ I was taught by highly experienced people that you can make ANY exit order work provided there is sufficient communication.

.....

Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong.

.....

Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong.

.....


Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong

.....


Anything can be made to work with enough communication.
If you only do it one way, you are wrong

You are correct. However, some ways are more resistant to poor communication than others. How do you GUARANTEE good communication among skydivers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jumperconway 0]

Very well put!!!
Conway 1117

[quade 3]

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It's already there.

Technically -- no.

A BSR is different than a General Recommendation.

A BSR is a Basic Safety Requirement (SIM Section 2) and must be followed except when specifically waivered. I think you'll find that most of the BSRs that -can't- be waivered are actually backed up by the FARs.

A General Recommendation (SIM Section 5) does not carry the same weight.

For instance, SIM 5 C 1 b 2;

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(2) Provide at least 1,500 feet of ground separation between small groups, adding more as size of the groups increases.

While this might be really nice at some drop zones, it's definately not the norm at most.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[freeflyerno 0]

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The performance canopies are going to get down and get out of the pattern. That's a good thing. We're not talking about the "have to hook" mentality, but be realistic, if you are flying a fast canopy you are going to land it fast, and quite possibly crosswind.

If you're gonna land it crosswind feel free to do it outside of the general landing area and make sure you're not the first down, thereby setting the pattern for following (perhaps relatively new and inexperienced) jumpers.
Much appreciated.

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It's out of a concern for everyone's safety not to disrupt the slower pattern with this behavior.

Landing crosswind is certainly a good way to disrupt a landing pattern.

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Around here freefling starts at about 35 jumps, not near enough experience or awareness to know what to do under canopy with a group coming down on top of them.

hmm.. That sounds like a training issue at your dz.
Guess we need yet another BSR.

Where have you been lately? More and more people are going straight to freefly after they get their A-license. I wouldn't trust someone straight off student-status to know how to fly a safe pattern with mixed groups (ie. freefly and/or RW), longer than I could throw them. YMMV.

---
Unanswered questions are far less dangerous than unquestioned answers

[billvon 2,381]

>Generally (although certainly not exclusively) Head down fliers fly faster
> canopies and have more experience in the sport.

Not true most places I jump.

>but the head down group gets there faster and has already descended a bit
>before said flat groups are even opening.

As Bryan Burke has said about a hundred times, you can't rely on vertical separation to keep you safe. Snivels, low pulls, and mals happen all the time.

>if you only ever do it one way, you are wrong.

I think that's a dumb thing to say. Thankfully it's not true for riggers, AFF-I's, competitors, record attempts etc. Occasionally, there is actually a right way to do something, and doing it that way all the time does not make it wrong.

> I was taught by highly experienced people that you can make ANY exit order
> work provided there is sufficient communication.

Of course. Heck, you could make one pass per group, and wait for each group to land before the next group gets out. Most people would consider that suboptimal.

>Larger flat groups, and competition flat groups tend to take a longer time to
> set up in the door . . .

Big ways do indeed take a long time to set up in the door; this is a good argument for putting them out first. Not sure which comp 4-way teams you're talking about, but most of the better ones exit pretty quickly.

>Avoiding the stackup of high performance canopies following low performance
> canopies to the landing area is also a safety issue.

Agreed. However, even a poor stiletto 120 pilot can figure out how to land before that spectre 170, even if he opens 30 seconds after him.

[Rdutch 0]

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>Larger flat groups, and competition flat groups tend to take a longer time to
> set up in the door . . .

Not sure which comp 4-way teams you're talking about, but most of the better ones exit pretty quickly.

Actually, most of the better teams take their time in the door, Ive seen Majic, take at least 30 seconds many, many times to climb out and exit. Frost, the Norgies and many other team's. Ive talked to our pilots many time's and they turn the green light on 20+ seconds early just to account for the time taken. It's better to take your time and set up right, than to rush it and have a bad exit when training/competing.

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Avoiding the stackup of high performance canopies following low performance
> canopies to the landing area is also a safety issue.

Agreed. However, even a poor stiletto 120 pilot can figure out how to land before that spectre 170, even if he opens 30 seconds after him.

Yes but then your obligating the 120 pilot to spiral down through the other canopies, A good order should be exit order/landing order.
Its a much missed saftey factor that vertical separation is a necessary thing. How many times do you see the whole load land at the same time? Nothing is worse than setting your vertical separation and then having the person that exited after you spiral down lower than you, now you have someone lower and behind you, there is a definite saftey issue there. Canopy size is an issue, but I can take my 96, be the first one to open and still land last, if I choose to.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[billvon 2,381]

>Yes but then your obligating the 120 pilot to spiral down through the other canopies

Not at all. If everyone opens with good horizontal separation, then they spiral down in their own area. If they overlap because you're relying on vertical rather than horizontal separation (a bad thing) then you have that problem.

>A good order should be exit order/landing order.

That makes little sense. People organize themselves by group, not by canopy type. What do you do with an 8 way freefly with canopies from a Crossfire 94 to a Spectre 150, and an 8 way RW group with canopies from a Samurai 92 to Silhouette 170? Do you tell them they have to split up?

A better method is to guarantee adequate horizontal separation and let the faster canopies land first.

>Its a much missed saftey factor that vertical separation is a necessary thing.

Vertical separation simply doesn't work. Canopies snivel, altimeters are inaccurate, and people have cutaways. Unless you can guarantee that none of those things happen, you need horizontal separation.

The ideal scenario is to have everyone open at the same altitude simultaneously with good horizontal separation; that way the faster canopies land first and the slower canopies land last without anyone spiraling at all. Putting belly out first helps accomplish this, although as I mentioned above you can never rely on vertical separation.

>How many times do you see the whole load land at the same time?

Never seen that.

>Nothing is worse than setting your vertical separation and then having the
> person that exited after you spiral down lower than you . . .

This happens on just about every jump I've ever been on, and it's just not an issue. When I have my 119, I spiral down and land first. When I have my 170, I hang out, fly a wide pattern, and land last. Pretty straightforward. I'm not sure why you would be worried about someone who exited after you (but quite possibly opened below you) spiral down and land before you.