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bodypilot90

would you get out of the plane if?

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>If the green light means "jump", you'd better jump.

Feel free to, but don't expect other groups to get out blindly.


Why not spot during the red light?

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>If you don't jump, wasting thousands of feet of perfectly good jumpable
> jumprun, don't be surprised by unhappy reactions.

A hundred wasted jumpruns is preferable to one skydiver-aircraft collision, or one exit way over the ocean or mountains.


First, my definition of perfectly good jumpable jumprun doesn't include aircrafts, oceans and mountains. Then, assuming that the spot is ok, if the guy at the door has no clue about the location of the DZ when the light turns green, i doubt that he helps much in the prevention of skydiver-aircraft collisions.
--
Come
Skydive Asia

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OK....I don't get out unless I am happy with the spot. I am responsable for my saftey, and the safety of my group.

If I don't like what I see....I don't go.

If you are yelling at me to go, I will happily let you by.

One time at Perris I was first out of (some tail gate aircraft, I don't remember which one). I had maybe 300 jumps at the time, most at a Cessna DZ. The green light came on, I looked down, and saw nothing. Not an Airport, nothing....I started to look forward, and the Airport was WAY off in the distance. I was not going to go. The others in the plane started to yell at me to go. I turned and told them no, that we were not ever close to the DZ. They continued to bitch and belly ache. I looked again, still not close enough. They started to yell at me. Now I had only 300ish jumps, and it was my first one at Perris. They all started to really scream at me to go. I looked down, still not close enough. They told me that I would go now, or they would ground me for being an idiot. I still didn't go. They really started to yell at me now. I looked down, and I thought I could make it back now, so my group left. We still landed off, and so did the next group. I waited like 15 seconds extra, and still missed the dz. I went up to the loudest mouthed asshole on the plane and told him the spot was fucked, and I will not get out again if I don't like it. I also told him that I would be happy to go see the S&TA, with him, and if the S&TA told sided with him, I would take the short drive to Elsinore.

The safest place to land is on target.

Now that I have said this...I recomend looking out the damn door on the ride up (this was a tail gate, do it was difficult). This lets you check drift at different altitudes, and know where you are at all times in relation to the DZ. I don't get suprized by the green light. And I know what the uppers are doing, becasue I have been watching them...

All of this is a fault of people not learning to spot an Aircraft. I have probley 500 accuracy jumps, and over 100 live demos. I know how to spot, the green light does not know how to spot.

Ron
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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If the green light means "jump", you'd better jump. If you don't jump, wasting thousands of feet of perfectly good jumpable jumprun, don't be surprised by unhappy reactions.
Now, rather than yelling at you, he'd rather explain the appropriate procedure.



I has seen 2 bad spots from this pilot on his last 2 loads. (from my house, just a bad spot away from the dz) We arrived and was asked to make a 7 min call so the skyvan could keep flying. (we did, it was a 3 way) I didn't know the skyvan pilot. All three of us have been jumping at that dz for 7 years. (longer than instructor has been at the dz) If I don't like the spot, I don't care who turned on the green light I am not getting off that aircraft.

NOTE: aircraft emergency is of course the exception.

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Green light does not mean "GO". Green light means "CLEAR TO SPOT & GO".

That being said, know who you have in the first group going out. If it's a relatively inexperienced group & new to the DZ, maybe there should be an experienced jumper or instructor who should take control of the door for the exit. Who ever organizes the load should identify this before the plane ever leaves the ground (of course, if the load wasn't organized then an instructor should have no one to blame but themselves). Not everyone recieves a good block of instruction on spotting durring their FJC or following coaching (even though it is part of the A card) and many younger jumpers don't have the confidence to hold a jump run for a better spot. Then as lemmings, the whole load piles out into a bad spot (hey, spottings for the pilot or first group out, right?).

Exiting the aircraft is a personal choice and responsibility. If the first one at the door don't have the experience to deal with the responsibility, it falls upon a senior jumper or instructor to take charge of the situation. Just my .02
Hearts & Minds
2 to the Heart-
1 to the Mind-
Home of the Coconut Lounge, Spa, & Artillery Range

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If the green light means "jump", you'd better jump. If you don't jump, wasting thousands of feet of perfectly good jumpable jumprun, don't be surprised by unhappy reactions.



With that mentality you are an accident waiting to happen, either to your self or some one who blindly follows you.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Let me add to what Chris has said. As much as possible, if you're used to the DZ, you should be aware of the general pattern being flown and the general direction of travel, so that you will sort of know in advance the line along which you will expect to find the airport.

At Sebastian, many times they will loop around over the ocean to the north and then end up coming from the north or the east on jump run. Even if they don't, the ocean's a good landmark (seamark?) and the pilot's pretty predictable. I find it helps limit hesitation if I know the direction from which I am coming (pre-spot, of course). I can remember being daunted when we were almost over I-95 on jump run, but then, the winds were high out of the west and we made it back easily.

Having said the above, if you have time, try to note where you exited and where you end up later in the jump. I can remember one day where on the last jump our free-fall drift was much less than on prior jumps with the same spot, so we pulled a bit higher (last ones out made this an option). The winds at various altitudes had dropped off and we needed more canopy time to get back.
I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

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>Why not spot during the red light?

Usually I do. Sometimes it's not possible (i.e. the CASA) and it takes me a few seconds to get into position, take a look out to check for the DZ and for traffic, and go.

>Then, assuming that the spot is ok, if the guy at the door has no
> clue about the location of the DZ when the light turns green, i doubt
> that he helps much in the prevention of skydiver-aircraft collisions.

Well, as long as he has no clue because he's a terrible spotter, that's true. If he has no clue because he can't see the DZ behind a cloud, or because it's not within two miles of the plane, he's doing you a favor by not getting out. As I said before, though, you can still go in those situations if you want.

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I think largely, it depends where you are.

At the midwestern DZ I frequent most, there are no nearby interstates, rivers, mountains, or any real hazzards of landing out. The DZ is entirely surrounde by farmland. While in late august the corn can grow quite high, it is hardly a "safety" hazard to land in corn. It can suck, but it's not unsafe.

It's pretty rare that I question the judgement of the pilot for more then a couple seconds. There are times when I've taken a bit longer getting out, and there are times where I rush to get out, but I don't think that's what we're talking about.

For starters, I simply can't imagine being COMPLETELY lost. First of all we fly almost exclusively otters, so the issue of looking out the tail (and not seeing where we're going) isn't a problem. Secondly, I can recognize landmarks in all 4 directions, so I can't imagine being COMPLETELY lost. Thirdly, jumpers should be looking out the windows prior to the green light, and should generally know where they are long before they get to the door. This is especially true to the first group out - are they not looking out the door during the red light?

In the three years of jumping at this particular DZ, I can only think of once when the pilot was COMPLETELY wrong, I got out anyways, landed two miles away... and was promptly picked up by the DZ van.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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True, that everyone likes to check their spot, and have the best spot.
Now picture this though.
Here I sit, a solo jumper about to make my first skysurf jump. What is exit order? Well, some things have to be taken into consideration.
What if I cut away the board?
What about my fall rate?
Where is everyone else on the plane getting out?
What other groups are coming behind me?

(This is just a rumor I heard once or twice)
A jumpmaster will be in charge of the plane. Somehow, before everyone boards the plane, information is exchanged about who is doing what type of jump, how high is everyone pulling, and how much seperation do they want from other groups for themselves to feel comfortable. I think the information is shared by talking beforehand.
So, if everyone decides I am first out, and that I am suppposed to go when it is green, guess what?
I watch the light, and then jump on green. See, it sucks, because I have to put a little bit of trust into the pilot, the jumpmaster who is in charge of spotting the WHOLE load, and the DZ for making sure they have a generally safe set up.'
Maybe when I get 1000 jumps or more, or own my own DZ, then I can take the luxury of taking the perfect spot for myself.
What I have found is that good spots on big planes usually put some people out short, and some people end up long.
And I don't have a problem finding SAFE alternative landing areas. I was taught the old school method. That when in doubt, it is up to ME to find a safe spot to land. It doesn't have to be on the DZ. It should be away from wires, fences, lakes, rivers, trees, obstacles, and other hazards. And if I land in Farmer McNasty's field, I better be extra nice and put up with him yelling at me.
But that is just what I learned once upon a time. And we all know, everyone is different.
Just my .02
If I am trying to do the group thing, and cooperate, I will jump when told.
Besides, it's not the fall the kills you, it's the sudden stop.

Thomas

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>So, if everyone decides I am first out, and that I am suppposed to
> go when it is green, guess what?
>I watch the light, and then jump on green.

Not everyone has to spot, and the spotter does not have to be the first person out. Every dive I did last weekend I was a diver, and had to trust someone else to spot. As long as one person takes their eyes outside the plane to verify that you're in approximately the right spot, you're clear of clouds, and there's no traffic, you're covered.

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Excellent point. Not everyone has to spot. I forgot to mention that if I am the first one out, and not the one spotting, I usually check with the person spotting the plane top make sure they are happy with the spot.
Because occasionally skydivers go to different dropzones, where they are not familiar with the ground lay out.
So, most DZ's will have an aerial photo of what you will see from altitude.
I am not trying to be right or wrong here. Only the question was when the light turns green, would I jump? And I wanted more info before making my decision on whether or not to jump.
And my answer is "Yes, if that is what is planned, I sure would."
Something like:
Make a plan, and follow the plan. This does not mean plans can't change because of something, but usually it is best for me to follow the plan that the whole plane has decided is a good plan. And you stated it well by saying that when you are a diver, you had to trust someone else to spot.
As in, if you are a diver, it is NOT a good idea to check the spot for yourself. Trust your group, and go with the plan. If it if a bad spot, talk about it on the ground, and try to improve the spot next time.
It is impossible to hold pilots to a "perfect spot" every time. So, we must all remember that in general, everyone tries their best.
And everyone makes mistakes once in awhile.
Isn't there some BEER RULE about bad spots?
OK, I'll stop with this thread before my PWing becomes TOO OBVIOUS.

Peace,
Thomas

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For starters, I simply can't imagine being COMPLETELY lost. First of all we fly almost exclusively otters, so the issue of looking out the tail (and not seeing where we're going) isn't a problem. Secondly, I can recognize landmarks in all 4 directions, so I can't imagine being COMPLETELY lost. Thirdly, jumpers should be looking out the windows prior to the green light, and should generally know where they are long before they get to the door. This is especially true to the first group out - are they not looking out the door during the red light?



as was said b4 skyvans are a little harder. There was a problem latching the overhead door. This took time away from prespotting. Tailgates (at least from my experiance) have the worse time putting jumpers on the dz. I've seen whole casa loads land off. As noted b4 i saw the first 2 loads, This time I wasn't trusting the pilot or his GPS.

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I did have a meeting with the instructor today, I couldn't find the STA. We had a pissing contest, I told him I'd take as long as I needed. He stated he needed to be sure his students could make it back. I asked him why he didn't spot for His students. If he didn't like the spot as for a go around. LOL he didn't like it much. If it happens again, I grab the DZO and the STA. I would never do it, but will admit I'm tempted to mess with him, but will not for the students sake.

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I has seen 2 bad spots from this pilot on his last 2 loads.


if you are better spotter than the pilot, go on, take the responsibility to spot for a skyvan. Anyway, as long as you do it properly, if an asshole yells at you, it will be easy to shut him down (he is the clueless one and you know what you are doing, right?).
Back to your initial story, did you land off the DZ? If the first groups made it back safely to the DZ, why did you have no clue about the location of the DZ when the light turned green? what were you doing during the red light? Were you actually watching at the ground frontwards, or were you just standing by the door watching below and backwards? With a rear door, standing at the door doesn't help to check for the traffic and it doesn't help much for downwind jumpruns either. If you were laying on the floor, actually watching frontwards, why were you unable to see the DZ?
--
Come
Skydive Asia

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>Anyway, as long as you do it properly, if an asshole yells at you, it
>will be easy to shut him down . . .

Assholes are very hard to shut down. I once had someone screaming at me to go on the CASA; it took me a total of 5-6 seconds to move my group onto the tailgate, check the spot, check for traffic, give the count and go.

After we landed she sought me out. "You know, you can't just wait in the door like that, you're gonna hose the rest of us. You waited like 20 seconds and the last group landed out."

"Well, I do hafta check for traffic, and it took me 5 seconds to exit total."

"No way, dude! You were in there 20, 25 seconds! That's why we were hosed."

"Wanna see the video?" That shut her up and she went away. That chestmount camera has come in handy quite often . . .

>he is the clueless one and you know what you are doing, right?

Like anyone in this sport will admit to being clueless?

>If you were laying on the floor, actually watching frontwards, why were
>you unable to see the DZ?

Works in a skyvan, but not in a CASA. Generally they don't want you on the tailgate until the green light (in case they move it) and I can't stand back up easily after laying on the tailgate of a CASA - which is an issue if you want to get out fast when the green light comes on.

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Works in a skyvan, but not in a CASA. Generally they don't want you on the tailgate until the green light (in case they move it) and I can't stand back up easily after laying on the tailgate of a CASA - which is an issue if you want to get out fast when the green light comes on.



I've been on a CASA load where the spotter was lying on the tailgate, and the exit key was when he rolled off!
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I think it goes back to old ATC question, "Who's working for whom"
Are you skydiving because the pilot is flying...or is the pilot there flying because you're skydiving?
If I paid my nickel for the ride, I would like to be the one to decide if I should get out.
They teach airline pilots that if something doesn't feel right...quite probably somethings not. Listen to that little voice, it's there to help ya!
...and if there is any question in your mind at exit, you won't be fully focused on the dive plan.
"Just my opinion...I could be wrong"










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Works in a skyvan, but not in a CASA. Generally they don't want you on the tailgate until the green light (in case they move it)


Really! Why would they tinker with the tailgate at that time? That's a strange requirement.
In other places the spotters have to go on the tailgate, CASA C-212, CN-235 and hercules C-130 alike.

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and I can't stand back up easily after laying on the tailgate of a CASA - which is an issue if you want to get out fast when the green light comes on.


You're kidding me, ain't ya? I'm sure you always anticipate the green light when you spot.

[edited] Anyway, even watching through the windows helps to know approximately where is the DZ, particularly for someone who has been jumping there for 7 years. A spotter completely lost when the light turns green is a bit worrying, but that's just my opinion.
--
Come
Skydive Asia

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You did the right thing.. NEVER EVER EVER GET OUT OF THE PLANE UNTIL YOU KNOW WHERE THE DZ IS. I DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT GOD, THE PILOT OR AN INSTRUCTOR SAYS.

You did the right thing. If ground winds were high the pilot was likely compensating by letting you out upwind.

You can get to know and trust the pilot and really not have to question the spots if you choose. I've never had a bad spot by Mike Mullins for example. When his green light goes on I am sure he is putting me where I should be.

Rhino

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As an AFF instructor, I always spot for my students. If my student lands off because of a bad spot, its my fault. The thing I hate is when pilots bitch at you for doing a go around with a first jump student ON THE PLANE. Its not professional and quite rude. I refuse to play games with my students because of a pissed off pilot. Big deal, go around...do a downwind jumprun.

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If you've been asked specifically to jumpmaster a load then any decision you make in the air is the
correct one.

You can argue the pros and cons of this on the ground afterwards.

The only criteria is to ask yourself 'What is the correct
(safe) thing to do in this situation ?'

Your decision may be different from the next persons
but that should not stop you calling it as you see it.

I've been jumpmastering loads for 25 years - got it wrong sometimes, sometimes right, but I still try to
approach it in this way.

:)

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quote" Assholes are very hard to shut down. " end quote.
He he!

This reminds me of a DZ long, long ago and far, far away.
We had been on a wind hold all afternoon. I was the first up with three static-line students. The wind drift indicator malfunctioned, so I had to guesstimate the spot. My first student landed in a big, grassy field on the south side of the runway. This was not our normal landing area, but he landed a long way from any obstacles.
I adjusted the spot and my second student landed in the grass on the north side of the runway, much closer to our regular landing area.
I adjusted the spot again and my third student landed beside the bowl, on the north side of the runway.
After I landed, another jumpmaster loudly chewed me out - in front of students - for being such an "asshole" and landing my students so far out.

He took the next load up and they all landed farther south than any of my students.

By the time the chief instructor took up the last load, it was so dark they had difficulty seeing the arrow. His students landed so far away I could not even see them!

I kept my mouth shut and left early while they picked their students out of the trees that bordered the south edge of the airport.

Sometimes the best way to shut down assholes is to say nothing.
He he!

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>Really! Why would they tinker with the tailgate at that time? That's a
>strange requirement.

I don't know. This was at Quincy, so maybe they were anticipating having to close the tailgate due to a goaround.

>A spotter completely lost when the light turns green is a bit worrying,
>but that's just my opinion.

It usually takes me a few seconds to find the DZ. Since the only time I jump CASA's generally is at Quincy/Rantoul, it's not a DZ I'm familiar with. Especially last year, with a completely new DZ.

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Just a little stirring of the pot with a hypothetical here:

You are in the second row of divers out of an Otter. You watch the base and floaters climb out and notice they are so busy setting up, they never look down. The head bobbing starts and away they go. Question: Do you stop at the door to spot and clear the airspace, or do you go blindly on faith? And answer honestly.:)
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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