bodypilot90 0 #1 January 19, 2003 Something happened to my group yesterday when we were jumping in chilly florida (I know you all feel sorry for me) We were jumping the skyvan. We were told the the ground speed would be very high. Green light comes on and we don't see anything we know on the ground. We couldn't locate the dz even. Now I have been jumping at this dz 7 years. Would you get out. It took at the most 4 sec to locate the dz. A instructor yelled at us once we got on the ground. I say bullshite. I've been on more than one load where the green light was on by mistake. I would never hose the whole load but on the other hand I'm responsible for my own safety. Gps is only as good as the person using it and I didn't know the pilot. What do you all think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveMonkey 0 #2 January 19, 2003 If I didn't know the dz, probably yes. If it was my own dz, I'd stay until I knew where I was, even if it meant another pass.____________________ Say no to subliminal messages Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #3 January 19, 2003 I don't care who the pilot is or fancy the GPS is. When the green light comes on I ALWAYS hang my head out the door to look for other airplanes and confirm the spot. If I cannot see the DZ, I remain in the airplane. Hint, you can reduce stress levels by pre-spotting. Pre-spotting means keeping your eyes outside the airplane for the last two minutes before the green light comes on. That way you have most of the picture before you open the door. Once the door is open, you only have to confirm that there are no airplanes underneath you and floaters can start climbing out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eyeinthesky 0 #4 January 19, 2003 if i didnt feel comfortable, i wouldnt do anything doughey, i was stupid before stupid was cool! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #5 January 19, 2003 QuoteHint, you can reduce stress levels by pre-spotting. Pre-spotting means keeping your eyes outside the airplane for the last two minutes before the green light comes on. That way you have most of the picture before you open the door. Once the door is open, you only have to confirm that there are no airplanes underneath you and floaters can start climbing out. Rob, I couldn't agree more. When the green light goes on in my airplane that is NOT the time to start looking out the door. I'll give the door light on with plenty of time for the first group to come to a concensus that they are in the right place. I also try to tell the jumpers where they can expect to be over when that green light goes on. It saves a lot of time when the door is open and the jumper looking out is lost. Pilots who only say go on Green and 5 seconds between exits aren't helping enough. The need to give more information to reduce the confusion. This is partly why I don't like the Skyvan as you can't see very easily where you are going from the back. You do have to trust the pilot a bit on distance and ground speed. But then again, no ever got hurt by staying in the plane and taking a second pass. I recommend that if people in the back start yelling -GO- that you step to the side and allow them to exit if you don't think there are any planes directly below you. And as they pass by you can say "Be my guest". (And mutter under your breathe "be my wind dummy").Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattb 0 #6 January 19, 2003 In my short time in the sport (200 jumps) I've been on 2 loads with go-arounds due to air traffic spotted by the first group hanging their head out the door. Enough said. It's worth mentioning that both times the exit light never went on and the groups were looking before it was time to jump. -mb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Poczynek 0 #7 January 19, 2003 GPS and instruments are great but not infallable (spelling), I remember a couple of military Talon jumps that ended up a klick or more off target, so even on a new DZ I try to have a couple of mental check points for the approach and release point. Check air space then the ground - if it doesn't look right - go around. A few words from an a-hole on the ground is a lot easier to take then the potential hazards from a really bad spot. I personnaly think from my observations that we (in the sport) take the responsibility of spotting to lightly too often. Cheersphat, dumb & happy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #8 January 19, 2003 You did the right thing. Your responsible for your life and those jumping with you if your spotting. Everyone gets disoriented sometimes so it's no big deal if someone else has to call the spot. Personally, I hate people who bitch about things like that. Taking too long in the door is one thing but ensuring the spot is on is another. It kills me that people let a little green light over ride their better judgement TO LOOK at what's out there."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JFC3 0 #9 January 19, 2003 I also agree with what's been said here. Especially about stepping aside and letting the pushy ones out first. But, just to play devils advocate, the spot takes into consideration uppers which will make one drift or not drift. This may, I stress may because I've been on loads with premature greens too, be why you could not see the DZ when the light went on. When leaving I will give the pilot the benefit of the doubt the first time and as long as I see no traffic and a clear spot to land if I had to I'll go. If I'm hosed I won't be so trusting the second time, but I'd also be sure to make my complaint at manifest. Honestly almost every time I make it back. Whether I have to work it all the way back or I'm right over top. In all my jumps (400+) I may have landed off (not on purpose) maybe two or three times. And without remembering them all that clearly I'll lay dollar to donuts they were either the first load or jumps where the uppers picked up or dropped off. "Five days? But I'm angry now!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #10 January 19, 2003 QuoteGPS and instruments are great but not infallable (spelling), I remember a couple of military Talon jumps that ended up a klick or more off target, I'm assuming that it was a static line CARP jump and not a HALO jump, correct?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #11 January 19, 2003 QuoteWhen the green light goes on in my airplane that is NOT the time to start looking out the door. I'll give the door light on with plenty of time for the first group to come to a concensus that they are in the right place. I also try to tell the jumpers where they can expect to be over when that green light goes on. It saves a lot of time when the door is open and the jumper looking out is lost. yes I agree and we were prespoting. we had a man with 30 years in the sport and 2 with 7 years,checking the spot. It didn't look right. this wasn't 1st load of the day but the 3rd. 1st load put everyone off the dz (except for the wise group that demanded a go around). 2ed load just made it back. Our group is normally first out so it's not like it was new to us. And we have got out 2-3 miles from the dz and made it back when the uppers were blowing. QuoteYou do have to trust the pilot a bit on distance and ground speed trust goes both ways, skydiving pilots rock! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bozo 0 #12 January 19, 2003 One time I didnt check a spot. It cost me ten days in intensive care, five months in a hospital bed,one year in a bodycast. ALWAYS know where you are prior to exit. Recently I was at Elsinore.....the lights came on in proper order...I was at the door spotting. People up front started yelling GO GO GO! I told them to shut the f**k up, I was spotting. Some of us still know how to do this. The wind had come up and I put us all where we belonged.....in the DZ. bozo bozo Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #13 January 19, 2003 QuoteQuoteHint, you can reduce stress levels by pre-spotting. Pre-spotting means keeping your eyes outside the airplane for the last two minutes before the green light comes on. That way you have most of the picture before you open the door. Once the door is open, you only have to confirm that there are no airplanes underneath you and floaters can start climbing out. Rob, I couldn't agree more. When the green light goes on in my airplane that is NOT the time to start looking out the door... Chris "Never a bad spot" Schindler is right. Also remember that the green light represents permission to exit, not an order to exit.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Plummet 0 #14 January 19, 2003 The spot is only important if you care where you land !-Jeff. http://www.iplummet.com Common sense and common courtesy are NOT common. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #15 January 19, 2003 after seeing a plane load of crw dogs get wet (landing in the indian river lagoon) last year this time, I care where I land, however if the spot is a little to far south I'll land at my house :) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #16 January 20, 2003 if this is the incident I am thinking of..... Those crew dogs spotted the plane, against the pilot's suggestion for jump run. I apologize in advance if I am mistaken.Life is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #17 January 20, 2003 Quote this is the incident I am thinking of..... Those crew dogs spotted the plane, against the pilot's suggestion for jump run. I apologize in advance if I am mistaken. close, they told the pilot where they wanted to get out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #18 January 20, 2003 and they got out there or they got out and werent there?Life is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sar911 0 #19 January 20, 2003 Quote What do you all think I think that I would get that instructor and go to the S&TA and have a group meeting and see what the outcome would be When in doubt ALWAYS go in favor of safety!!! Besides after what happened to me at that drop zone yesterday I doubt that I or the rest of my team will be back. It's a shame to; we just had our budget approved for the year, $11,200 that will go to another DZ for training and jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #20 January 20, 2003 QuoteI think that I would get that instructor and go to the S&TA and have a group meeting and see what the outcome would be I will I just wanted to wait till the weekend is over. Also wanted to cool down a bit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #21 January 20, 2003 QuoteWe were told the the ground speed would be very high... It took at the most 4 sec to locate the dz. 4 sec at very high speed can easily be much more than 1000 feet. QuoteA instructor yelled at us once we got on the ground [...] What do you all think? If the green light means "jump", you'd better jump. If you don't jump, wasting thousands of feet of perfectly good jumpable jumprun, don't be surprised by unhappy reactions. Now, rather than yelling at you, he'd rather explain the appropriate procedure.-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScratchTX 0 #22 January 20, 2003 This may sound like a troll, but it isn't -- I have never jumped at a large DZ. Can't you ask people, "What are the uppers like?" and "where have you been getting out?" before you go up? I have been in situations where the uppers were strong and different from their usual pattern, so jumprun and the spot were way off from where I am used to seeing them, but I knew what to expect when I looked out. It was a good practical lesson in freefall drift... (wow, I really did end up opening here...!) If I thought that we should be getting out at one particular spot, but we were actually way on the other side of the highway somewhere else, I hope I would say "whoa, no thanks, go around please." In the heat of the moment, I suppose I might just go anyway and get my experience the hard way. That happens, too... Also, I don't think I could really tell much if the winds had changed significantly since takeoff, so I could be screwed there. But really, I guess I need to get out more to see the big world. Although we don't have the winds aloft posted at my dz, and I can't tell you the compass orientations of our runway, we do always talk with the pilots and previous loads about the winds/spot, and identify landmarks for where we should climb out, exit, and (hopefully) be at opening. I can imagine how it is much harder to do that at a big dz with larger planes (and more of them.) Lucky for me that I am a slacker jumper, not driven to make 7-8 loads a day (HA HA HA), so I am perfectly happy at the smaller paced places, looking out the door of a Cessna. I can see the appeal of the "far from the door, third group out, oh well, they have GPS so I'll just go" mentality, but I think it would freak me out a little. More stress too, about whether to intervene or not re: winds, spot, exit order, etc. It's easier to exercise being more in charge of my jump on a plane with four or five other people who know me, vs. 21-23 other random skydivers and unknown pilot... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyThomas 0 #23 January 20, 2003 Were you the only person getting out, or was there only one group exiting at the same time? Or were there multiple groups? That is something to consider when spotting, or so I heard. That, and golf carts really help when jumping a King Air. Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #24 January 20, 2003 QuoteIf the green light means "jump", you'd better jump. If you don't jump, wasting thousands of feet of perfectly good jumpable jumprun, don't be surprised by unhappy reactions. Unacceptable. Period! I don't care if the exit light is on or not. If the spot isn't correct, I'm not going. Remember, people, you are responsible for your skydive, even for your spot. I will definitely waste "thousands of feet" if the spot isn't right and you had better belive that I or my group will be asking for a go-around if the spot is such that there is no way possible to make it back to the DZ. KrisSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #25 January 20, 2003 >4 sec at very high speed can easily be much more than 1000 feet. Sure, in a king air flying downwind on a day with high uppers. Or on a 727 high speed pass. Such cases are rare though. >If the green light means "jump", you'd better jump. Feel free to, but don't expect other groups to get out blindly. Many jumpers still check the spot and the airspace - I know I do - and yelling at such jumpers will not get them out any faster. In fact, if it's me, I tend to slow down. >If you don't jump, wasting thousands of feet of perfectly good jumpable > jumprun, don't be surprised by unhappy reactions. A hundred wasted jumpruns is preferable to one skydiver-aircraft collision, or one exit way over the ocean or mountains. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
