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Students jumping at different DZ's (Semi long post)

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Back story: I did an IAD first jump course last August and loved it but didn't have the money to continue. I got the money and this June I took a trip and tried out AFF at a different DZ because the one that I jumped at before didn't offer it. This meant re-doing ground school but as I had only 1 jump and a tandem I needed it. Fast forward to today - I passed Levels 1-3 of AFF but never went back for more so I returned to my local DZ to work on my solo cert in the GFF program and I now have 13 jumps (4 mins of FF time). I land without radio guidance and my JM's are comfortable with me landing in the fun jumper field. When I got back to the DZ I first jumped with they spent about an hour with me as a refresher, put me in a harness to check my EP's etc etc before they sent me up.

Anyways, because of work I haven't jumped in 10 days, and won't be able to return to my local DZ until September. However I will be traveling to another part of the country to see friends and they live near a tunnel so I hoped to get some jumps in to stay current and practice what I learn in the tunnel as I have had issues with turns.

So far I've reached out to one dropzone to discuss the possibility of me jumping their and what I'd have to do. They got back to me and told me I would have to take their ground school before I could jump, no exceptions. The price of the ground school and one jump is $327 (regular price of a GFF jump is $100), but they will give me $60 in jump credit if my two friends who would like to do tandems come along.

I believe in safety and procedures, and I in no way shape or form think I have learned everything in the sport but does this not seem like unreasonably high price? I know some people will say "If you don't like it don't jump there" which is what I plan on doing, but I figured I would see what people on here think. I was under the impression that I'd need to learn the DZ rules, familiarize myself with their gear and landing patterns, learn the planes/do a few dirt dives (though they use C. 182's like my home DZ) and that would be enough. To me that should take about an hour and not constitute having to retake ground school. When you discount the jump the price of that learning is going to cost $167 or $227 if my friends wimp out.

Now my goal isn't to bad mouth the DZ (which is why I've left it vague) I'm just interested in hearing your overall opinion on this and how you've seen it dealt with in the past. Cheers. :D

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Shop around. They told you their deal (and "no exceptions") so not sure what getting the opinion of folks here would do for you. You are probably more experienced with the process than anyone here (you already transitioned to another DZ, and then back to your original).

$60 bounty for 2 tandem passengers strikes me as quite high. You sure this isn't a tandem mill? (Those places always say they train students, but it seems like they either price it so high, or give you such low priority, that few people actually train there. They really only want to do tandems.)

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I would see if you could get the DZO or head instructor from your local DZ to call on your behalf and explain your skills/experience/training. That's not to say that you won't have to do some sort of training at the new DZ, but what you are describing sounds like the same thing a guy with zero jumps would have to do, and that doesn't seem right.

Doesn't the CSPA have some sort of standard in place with regards to student currency?

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if you're in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) call Adam at Parachute School of Toronto, they'll charge you maybe $50 (don't quote me on that) for a refresher and get you back in the air jumping the 206, it'll be slicker than snot a door knob. :P


"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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Divalent

Shop around. They told you their deal (and "no exceptions") so not sure what getting the opinion of folks here would do for you. You are probably more experienced with the process than anyone here (you already transitioned to another DZ, and then back to your original).

$60 bounty for 2 tandem passengers strikes me as quite high. You sure this isn't a tandem mill? (Those places always say they train students, but it seems like they either price it so high, or give you such low priority, that few people actually train there. They really only want to do tandems.)



I just wanted to hear what people thought to see if I was way off base for thinking it is somewhat ridiculous. So far I think everyone is on the same page.

I don't personally know anyone who has jump experience their, and the reviews seemed overall pretty good on here. However I kind of got the feel from what I've read that you might be right in regards to them being a tandem mill.

Quote

I would see if you could get the DZO or head instructor from your local DZ to call on your behalf and explain your skills/experience/training. That's not to say that you won't have to do some sort of training at the new DZ, but what you are describing sounds like the same thing a guy with zero jumps would have to do, and that doesn't seem right.

Doesn't the CSPA have some sort of standard in place with regards to student currency?



That is a good idea and something I will think about, although they may not be lenient with me now as I was pretty upfront in my emails about expressing my dissatisfaction about their decision. *Removes foot from mouth* haha.

I'll look into any CSPA rules tonight or tomorrow and see what I can find. I have my log book but a call from a DZO or JM would be good backup to have also.

Quote

if you're in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) call Adam at Parachute School of Toronto, they'll charge you maybe $50 (don't quote me on that) for a refresher and get you back in the air jumping the 206, it'll be slicker than snot a door knob.



Should I be in that area I may just do that! :P Thanks for the tip.

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Moving around different DZs during training is generally a bad idea for several reasons.

You are running into one of those reasons. Each place probably does training slightly differently and will want to check out your skills and make sure you are up to snuff before letting you jump there. This is their right and a good safety practice but it adds expense to the jumps. There is not really a way around this.

This is a little easier if you are working with two DZs where the people all know each other (on good terms) and may be more likely to take an instructors word on skill level. It also gets easier when you are cleared for self-supervision in Freefall (and I don't know where that is in your progression but likely not yet if you are still having trouble in turns).

Anyway, it seems a little harsh to criticize the DZ for wanting to make sure you are safe.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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>>>I would have to take their ground school before I could jump, no exceptions. The price of the ground school and one jump is $327 (regular price of a GFF jump is $100), but they will give me $60 in jump credit if my two friends who would like to do tandems come along.

You sure they didn't misunderstand and thought you wanted to do a tandem?
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Southern_Man

Moving around different DZs during training is generally a bad idea for several reasons.

You are running into one of those reasons. Each place probably does training slightly differently and will want to check out your skills and make sure you are up to snuff before letting you jump there. This is their right and a good safety practice but it adds expense to the jumps. There is not really a way around this.

This is a little easier if you are working with two DZs where the people all know each other (on good terms) and may be more likely to take an instructors word on skill level. It also gets easier when you are cleared for self-supervision in Freefall (and I don't know where that is in your progression but likely not yet if you are still having trouble in turns).

Anyway, it seems a little harsh to criticize the DZ for wanting to make sure you are safe.



I'm not criticizing as I know it is "their sandbox, their rules", I'm just starting a discussion about DZ policy and practices for these situations. I definitely only want to jump at a DZ that put's safety first but to me what they are asking for both in terms of money and a time commitment is slightly ridiculous. Thanks to capitalism though I have options so my friends and I can spend our money playing somewhere else.

And yes BIGUN I am sure they knew that I was a student working on their solo cert.

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It can be awkward for DZ's to accommodate students who started with different gear and procedures at different locations.

Still, that can often be taken care of with an extra long briefing (and a smaller payment) and perhaps a repeat of a jump at your current level.

You've already passed AFF L1-3 (quite similar to PFF), and done some GFF jumps.... so one would think the DZ would be able to slot you in somewhere appropriate to your skill level, whatever method of training they use.

I could understand it if they said that despite passing L3, they'd like you to do one more 2:1 PFF jump with their instructors, instead of going right to 1:1 ... just to be on the safe side, despite the extra expense to you.

Talking with a senior instructor or manager would normally help, as it might be less clear to regular front office staff (who are often not instructors) what to do.

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Student jumps represent the largest risk to a Dz for a fairly low profit. The real revenue for DZs comes from tandem and, especially for Cessna DZs, the student ground school. You represent the type of student I liked dealing with the least when I was in the biz; you are treating student jumps like an end product rather than a means to the end of becoming a solo skydiver. You are not proposing to switch your program to this DZ, you merely want to do one or two jumps there before continuing your student phase at "your" home DZ. You are not alone in this approach but in general this type of jumping is a pain for instructors as they must make sure your knowledge and skill level are where you think they are. Unless they personally know your previous instructors they are unlikely to take their word for much of it. Furthermore this approach tends to be very cost ineffective for you.
Since the owners of the Montreal tunnel do not cater to piecemeal student jumps at all (nor do they sell GFF), I will presume you are at the tunnel in Beiseker AB. My suggestion is you grind Debbie for the sixty dollar discount off your tunnel time, get Jesse to help you with your turn issues, and return to your home DZ when you have enough money to finish your solo certificate. This is probably the safest and most cost efficient path.

Have fun.

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>I was under the impression that I'd need to learn the DZ rules, familiarize myself with
>their gear and landing patterns, learn the planes/do a few dirt dives (though they use
>C. 182's like my home DZ) and that would be enough.

That's enough for a licensed jumper but definitely not for a student. Although AFF programs are fairly standardized everyone does things a little differently, including different hand signals, exit procedures, canopy checkout, aircraft loading, exit procedures etc. Most schools will not take the chance that you might have gotten different training about those items.

In addition if you've learned a specific method of (for example) exiting it is VERY hard to change that method, since it's been drilled into you. Thus you may require extra time to "unlearn" what you have learned at the first place you jumped.

Thus although you have learned a lot of the basics the new place will have to go through a lot of retraining. Just doing the FJC over is often the fastest option for a busy DZ; you will be part of a class (thus no extra instructor needed for ~2 hours or so) and then will go with an instructor on a Level 2 or 3 AFF.

That's not to say someone won't take pity on you and give you a good deal, since you already know the basics. But definitely don't expect to "familiarize myself with the place, do some dirt dives and go up."

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billvon

>I was under the impression that I'd need to learn the DZ rules, familiarize myself with
>their gear and landing patterns, learn the planes/do a few dirt dives (though they use
>C. 182's like my home DZ) and that would be enough.

That's enough for a licensed jumper but definitely not for a student. Although AFF programs are fairly standardized everyone does things a little differently, including different hand signals, exit procedures, canopy checkout, aircraft loading, exit procedures etc. Most schools will not take the chance that you might have gotten different training about those items.

In addition if you've learned a specific method of (for example) exiting it is VERY hard to change that method, since it's been drilled into you. Thus you may require extra time to "unlearn" what you have learned at the first place you jumped.

Thus although you have learned a lot of the basics the new place will have to go through a lot of retraining. Just doing the FJC over is often the fastest option for a busy DZ; you will be part of a class (thus no extra instructor needed for ~2 hours or so) and then will go with an instructor on a Level 2 or 3 AFF.

That's not to say someone won't take pity on you and give you a good deal, since you already know the basics. But definitely don't expect to "familiarize myself with the place, do some dirt dives and go up."



Not sure if it makes a difference but I should clarify that in my OP I said that I transitioned back to GFF after doing levels 1-3 of AFF and I am on solo 15-20 second jumps and have done them from the same aircraft that the dropzone in question uses. Alas you have all made some good points that I may have overlooked due to inexperience and perhaps a bit of self centered-ness.

Andrewwhyte, not sure how you extrapolated my location but I will be visiting Ontario/Quebec and I am from the West (but nowhere near Beiseker).

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cashflow

Back story: I did an IAD first jump course last August and loved it but didn't have the money to continue. I got the money and this June I took a trip and tried out AFF at a different DZ because the one that I jumped at before didn't offer it. This meant re-doing ground school but as I had only 1 jump and a tandem I needed it. Fast forward to today - I passed Levels 1-3 of AFF but never went back for more so I returned to my local DZ to work on my solo cert in the GFF program and I now have 13 jumps (4 mins of FF time). I land without radio guidance and my JM's are comfortable with me landing in the fun jumper field. When I got back to the DZ I first jumped with they spent about an hour with me as a refresher, put me in a harness to check my EP's etc etc before they sent me up.

Anyways, because of work I haven't jumped in 10 days, and won't be able to return to my local DZ until September. However I will be traveling to another part of the country to see friends and they live near a tunnel so I hoped to get some jumps in to stay current and practice what I learn in the tunnel as I have had issues with turns.

So far I've reached out to one dropzone to discuss the possibility of me jumping their and what I'd have to do. They got back to me and told me I would have to take their ground school before I could jump, no exceptions. The price of the ground school and one jump is $327 (regular price of a GFF jump is $100), but they will give me $60 in jump credit if my two friends who would like to do tandems come along.

I believe in safety and procedures, and I in no way shape or form think I have learned everything in the sport but does this not seem like unreasonably high price? I know some people will say "If you don't like it don't jump there" which is what I plan on doing, but I figured I would see what people on here think. I was under the impression that I'd need to learn the DZ rules, familiarize myself with their gear and landing patterns, learn the planes/do a few dirt dives (though they use C. 182's like my home DZ) and that would be enough. To me that should take about an hour and not constitute having to retake ground school. When you discount the jump the price of that learning is going to cost $167 or $227 if my friends wimp out.

Now my goal isn't to bad mouth the DZ (which is why I've left it vague) I'm just interested in hearing your overall opinion on this and how you've seen it dealt with in the past. Cheers. :D



Just a thought, but wouldn't be easier if you found the time and schedule to commit yourself to one DZ throughout your AFF progression?

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I work about 90+ hours a week in the middle of nowhere for weeks at a time. Right now I won't be back home until September but I'll be across the country close to several DZ's and I wan't to continue jumping. So yes, while it would be easier to stick with one DZ their is just a myriad of circumstances that stop me from doing so if I want to learn at a decent pace.

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I definitely only want to jump at a DZ that put's safety first but to me what they are asking for both in terms of money and a time commitment is slightly ridiculous.



No, what is slightly ridiculous is you're assumption with your 13 jumps in the sport that you know enough about the difference in training program, gear between the DZ's, instructional staff, and general acceptance of liability for you.

It is their DZ, and it is their rules, and you by posting here are throwing a tantrum about things not going your way. Not the kind of attitude that is conducive to safety, or longevity in this sport.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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diablopilot

Quote

I definitely only want to jump at a DZ that put's safety first but to me what they are asking for both in terms of money and a time commitment is slightly ridiculous.



No, what is slightly ridiculous is you're assumption with your 13 jumps in the sport that you know enough about the difference in training program, gear between the DZ's, instructional staff, and general acceptance of liability for you.

It is their DZ, and it is their rules, and you by posting here are throwing a tantrum about things not going your way. Not the kind of attitude that is conducive to safety, or longevity in this sport.




Where exactly in this thread did I throw the tantrum? Please dispatch an internet WAAMbulance to it's location.

All kidding aside it sounds like you're under the impression I only care about money and not safety, which is wrong. I simply wanted to start a discussion so I could enlighten myself on other peoples opinions about the issue at hand (i'm new to the sport, how do I know what's fair and isn't?). I did so because in MY opinion this DZ in question is using safety as a mask for charging me the full cost of ground school. That is not to say that I would not benefit in any way from taking the class as I am sure I would. However I believe that with my (albeit limited) training and experience I can make a safe and successful jump at their DZ without needing to go through (and paying for) their entire ground school. Would you buy an entire pig if you only needed 10 lbs of bacon? I know it's a poor example but the principal is generally the same.

Now as others in this thread have mentioned I am sure they have warranted reasons for their requirements, and whether I am right or wrong, I just don't agree to the them. Hopefully I have better luck when I talk to other DZ's but if not I can wait till I'm back home. Thanks for your input.

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>Would you buy an entire pig if you only needed 10 lbs of bacon?

Knowing how much knowledge you need to make a safe skydive is not the same as knowing how much bacon you need. I think if you approach this as "trying to find a DZ who won't cheat me and make me buy pork I don't need" you'll end up unhappy.

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billvon

>Would you buy an entire pig if you only needed 10 lbs of bacon?

Knowing how much knowledge you need to make a safe skydive is not the same as knowing how much bacon you need. I think if you approach this as "trying to find a DZ who won't cheat me and make me buy pork I don't need" you'll end up unhappy.



Care to elaborate further? If you're right it means choosing one of two crappy choices: over paying, or not jumping at all. I'm optimistic about finding a DZ that can offer some middle ground.

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You're saying I should kill my pig just to sell you 10 pounds of bacon?
Student training is not a money maker for most drop zones. You are not planning on being a regular jumper. You have jumped just often enough to not be current, especially in light of you jumping between training methods.
STFU
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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Seems to me you are finding that as a student you are at the bottom of the dung pile.

Get used to it.......its always been the way. Back in my student days we were lucky to have a dung pile.....

Of course we were useful as wind drift indicators and holding tension on harnesses during packing.

Save your bucks and hammer it when you get home.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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ufk22

You're saying I should kill my pig just to sell you 10 pounds of bacon?
Student training is not a money maker for most drop zones. You are not planning on being a regular jumper. You have jumped just often enough to not be current, especially in light of you jumping between training methods.
STFU



-> http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af359/gbeezy09/Funny%20Uploads/Calm_down_bro-DWrvfmLVFfKK0S1yir7V.jpg

Do you think the DZ only has one pig? No. So in this hypothetical I don't expect someone to slaughter 1 pig for 10 lbs of bacon if they have more suitable pre-cut portions available. If they didn't then everything I have said would be unfounded now wouldn't it?

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OK, so if you haven't figured this out yet.....
Every DZ has there own specific training program and their own specific student gear. The training most likely follows the ISP but everyone does it slightly differently. All equipment is basicly the same, but it could be SOS or dual handle, could be throw-out or ripcord.
Your jump history is short, diverse and spotty.
You seem to think that whatever DZ you show up at should not follow their own specific progression, but rather get an instructor to spend a couple of hours with you to determine what you know and don't know, what equipment system you are used to and then develope a trauining program that will be used just for you. After doing this, they should not charge you too much money.
I've been training students and instructors for many years. I've seen a number of instances similar to what you're talking about. Someone shows up, low jump student, just passing through and wants to make a jump or two. It's far easier and more efficient to run them through our FJC with other students than it is to spend the one-on-one time to figure out where they are in their training and abilities.
Bottom line, if you want to progress in this sport, pick a DZ and a program and stick with it.
cashflow

***You're saying I should kill my pig just to sell you 10 pounds of bacon?
Student training is not a money maker for most drop zones. You are not planning on being a regular jumper. You have jumped just often enough to not be current, especially in light of you jumping between training methods.
STFU



-> http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af359/gbeezy09/Funny%20Uploads/Calm_down_bro-DWrvfmLVFfKK0S1yir7V.jpg

Do you think the DZ only has one pig? No. So in this hypothetical I don't expect someone to slaughter 1 pig for 10 lbs of bacon if they have more suitable pre-cut portions available. If they didn't then everything I have said would be unfounded now wouldn't it?
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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ufk22

OK, so if you haven't figured this out yet.....
Every DZ has there own specific training program and their own specific student gear. The training most likely follows the ISP but everyone does it slightly differently. All equipment is basicly the same, but it could be SOS or dual handle, could be throw-out or ripcord.
Your jump history is short, diverse and spotty.
You seem to think that whatever DZ you show up at should not follow their own specific progression, but rather get an instructor to spend a couple of hours with you to determine what you know and don't know, what equipment system you are used to and then develope a trauining program that will be used just for you. After doing this, they should not charge you too much money.
I've been training students and instructors for many years. I've seen a number of instances similar to what you're talking about. Someone shows up, low jump student, just passing through and wants to make a jump or two. It's far easier and more efficient to run them through our FJC with other students than it is to spend the one-on-one time to figure out where they are in their training and abilities.
Bottom line, if you want to progress in this sport, pick a DZ and a program and stick with it.



You make a lot of good points, so thanks for clarifying. I wish I could spend every weekend jumping at home but alas my schedule doesn't permit it, so you can't fault a guy for just wanting to jump ;).

Since I am a infant in the sport though I was under the impression there was more uniformity across all DZ's , but as you and others have mentioned it's not necessarily the case (albeit for pretty good reasons). If I get some jumps in then that's great I'll be a step closer to my solo, and if not I have no quarrels with waiting till I am back home. It's going to continue being a fun journey either way.

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I won't comment on the OP's question, as I simply don't know enough.

But I will say that it does feel kind of bad being an excited student and getting last priority behind tandems and everything else. Kind of a bummer.

I've taken 11 people to my home DZ (and paid for them all out of my funds/company funds--some were employees and clients), talked two friends into taking the AFF class with me, have put a ton of money down on my account and been totally flexible with my schedule.

Yet, it's often "oh we have a bunch of tandems and they push me back." Even when I do get in I have to wait hours just to go up.

Albeit, the instructors are awesome and have helped me tremendously. Not knocking them in any way.

I definitely understand business (I have owned a successful business for a loooong time that I started from nothing and know about A, B, C, D customers, etc.), but if you're not making money on something that is in demand... charge more... Pretty straight forward microeconomics. I'd be happy to pay three times as much to move things forward.

Anyway, just my view from a student who is available, working hard, and just wants to get his A before summer is gone. I travel a lot and would love to hit some other DZs.
Chance favors the prepared mind.

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wicodefly

I won't comment on the OP's question, as I simply don't know enough.

But I will say that it does feel kind of bad being an excited student and getting last priority behind tandems and everything else. Kind of a bummer.

I've taken 11 people to my home DZ (and paid for them all out of my funds/company funds--some were employees and clients), talked two friends into taking the AFF class with me, have put a ton of money down on my account and been totally flexible with my schedule.

Yet, it's often "oh we have a bunch of tandems and they push me back." Even when I do get in I have to wait hours just to go up.

Albeit, the instructors are awesome and have helped me tremendously. Not knocking them in any way.

I definitely understand business (I have owned a successful business for a loooong time that I started from nothing and know about A, B, C, D customers, etc.), but if you're not making money on something that is in demand... charge more... Pretty straight forward microeconomics. I'd be happy to pay three times as much to move things forward.

Anyway, just my view from a student who is available, working hard, and just wants to get his A before summer is gone. I travel a lot and would love to hit some other DZs.



If you really want to jump, going to other DZs as a student certainly is an option. As a student I jumped at two DZs while in trips, one DZ because my home DZ had aircraft issues, and my "home" DZ was not the DZ where I did my first jumps. In all, 5 different DZs while a student. Make sure they are USPA DZs, you keep a good log, you stay very current, and are willing to do evaluation type jumps if it is your first jump at a given DZ.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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