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staticnewbie

How do you see risk

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I realise I'll probably get blasted into Talkback here, but I'm doing a project on how rock climbers evaluate risk, but want to compare it to skydivers.

If any of you can nicely put into words how you rationalise the fact that you hurl yourself from aircraft just for fun, I would love to hear it. If any of you climb as well as jump, or jump BASE, that would be even more useful to hear your comparisons between the different disciplines.

As a final request (and I realise I'm pushing my luck here), if anyone is kind enough to e-mail detailed accounts, contact info. etc. to me at [email protected] I would be eternally grateful. I suspect you're all starting to smell beer...

Cheers,
Nick

This username sucks, so I'm BBKid now instead. Replies, insults, sexual favours and death threats to be sent there from now on.

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That's a really cool question.

How does one assess the risk of climbing, Skydiving, Base Jumping. Once assessed how is it justified?

I like it. I'll put some thought into it and Try to send you some thoughts about it.

C-ya
Tim
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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So you're assuming we skydivers are rational people, eh?
Guess again :D! We jump out of airplanes simply because IT FEELS SO GOOD.
Oh, and most of us probably believe firmly in the equipment we use, the knowledge we have about what we're doing and that if we apply this knowledge correctly, we won't die. Unless, of course, a big wad of bad luck should come our way, in which case we will die. But that could happen anywhere and anytime, and the only thing you'll get from worrying about it is an ulcer:ph34r:.


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Maybe I'm just weird, but I like to think of it in terms of a risk/fun ratio. The risk of skydiving is very low compared to how much fun it is. The fun factor makes the risk factor seem irrelevant. Now take something like snowmobiling. I enjoy this as well, but I believe it to be much more dangerous and not nearly as much fun as skydiving. (There are so many more things to run into!) So is it insane to jump out of an airplane? Not for the pleasure I get from it! From the risk/fun ratio point of view, snowmobiling is much more insane, because it is not as much fun and much more dangerous.

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Why worry about the risk? You know your gear and you know your ability if you use your head then the risk is minimal. You can die doing anything. Skydiving doesn't have to be dangerous, but it does have to be fun.


--TB
Welcome my friends to the show that never ends.

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There were a couple of really good posts about this in this dz.com thread from awhile back.

The post this points to, and hooknswoop's response a few posts later are particularly apropos.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I have only done 3 tandems, but the reason I went the 1st time was to make a risk video for the company I work for. Their motto... "The greatest risk is not taking one". After doing the skydive, I wholeheartedly agree. Sometimes you just have to take a risk to enjoy life to the fullest.
__________________________________________________
"If happy little bluebirds fly above the rainbow, why oh why can't I?"

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I skydive because I love it, I love the thrill of freefall, I love the joys of canopy flying, I love the peace of mind of concentrating on something so different from my daily worries and I love the friendships that develop. And it certainly is less risky than riding any motorbike on daily traffic. So skydiving is an excellent mix of very reasonable low risk with fantastic joy and fun.

With due respect, BASE jumping or rock climbing are different in what they offer and in the risks involved. It is my personal choice due to my personal evaluation that skydiving gives a broader scope of thrill and joys with less risks. I repeat: it is MY personal choice due to MY personal evaluation. Others may choose differently due to different evaluations.



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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I think there may be a tendency to downplay the dangers in our sport. When I was much younger everyone was saying that skydiving was safer than waterskiing because supposedly someone came up with statistics that could prove this point. The thing is, I know quite a few people who water ski yet none of them (I know) have died at it. I don't know all that many skydivers. Yet over the years I've known five people personally who were killed jumping. (And I was out of the sport for about 25 years.) But at any rate, I have a hard time thinking of skydiving as being safe.

Have you ever known anyone who was refused life insurance because he waterskis? If you are a pilot or skydiver you may have problems in this area. Actually an insurance company would be one place to check for valid statistics. I would hope they base their policies and premiums on this kind of evidence.

Often times private pilots have told me how crazy I am to jump. Most of them are taken back when I tell them I don't think jumping is much more dangerous than what they do. But I don't have any hard evidence for this either. I just know a lot of private pilots who have crashed and died. It would be interesting to look at some valid statistics that compare the fatalities in various sports. Steve1

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I think there may be a tendency to downplay the dangers in our sport. When I was much younger everyone was saying that skydiving was safer than waterskiing because supposedly someone came up with statistics that could prove this point. The thing is, I know quite a few people who water ski yet none of them (I know) have died at it. I don't know all that many skydivers. Yet over the years I've known five people personally who were killed jumping. (And I was out of the sport for about 25 years.) But at any rate, I have a hard time thinking of skydiving as being safe.

Have you ever known anyone who was refused life insurance because he waterskis? If you are a pilot or skydiver you may have problems in this area. Actually an insurance company would be one place to check for valid statistics. I would hope they base their policies and premiums on this kind of evidence.

Often times private pilots have told me how crazy I am to jump. Most of them are taken back when I tell them I don't think jumping is much more dangerous than what they do. But I don't have any hard evidence for this either. I just know a lot of private pilots who have crashed and died. It would be interesting to look at some valid statistics that compare the fatalities in various sports. Steve1



Well, first you have to decide the basis of the comparison? Risk per jump compared to risk per flight hour? Risk per year of participation in each activity? Reduction in life expectancy? ...
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I found this article written by Peter Katz, it is really interesting, "When Good Pilots Make Bad Decisions"
Plane & Pilot, July 2002: p42. :

"How Leisure Activities Compare"

Activity Fatalities per mil. hours

-Skydiving 128.71
-General Aviation 10.11
-Motorcycling 8.80
-Scuba Diving 1.98
-Swimming 1.07
-Snowmobile 0.88
-water skiing 0.28
-bicycling 0.26

Quote


Well, first you have to decide the basis of the comparison? Risk per jump compared to risk per flight hour? Risk per year of participation in each activity? Reduction in life expectancy? ...



Well heck, I don't know? But then who can really calculate life expectancy anyway... I guess I could get my calculator out and bleed down the numbers... but I don't see the need....

.
--
I'm done with the personally meaningful and philosophical sigs!!

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>When you have been jumping for a while you don't even think about the risk.

I think most jumpers still consider it. Some of us choose canopies based on what will land us safely 100 out of 100 times, rather than the fastest canopy we can get. Some of us sit out when the winds get bad, or when the weather's about to get nasty. Some of us avoid loads where the chances of an injury are high, or avoid DZ's where the aircraft are unsafe. So we still think about the risk, we just decide that, most of the time, it's acceptable. Some think about it more than others, but the ones who don't think about it at all often end up dead.

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These numbers may be deceptive. The question arises, how were they measured? I doubt that all the skydivers who have ever jumped throughout all of history have accumulated a million hours of freefall, so if it measures freefall time the error there is probably greater than the measurement. If this includes the time since plane ride to landing, it's a bit more convincing, but I imagine that those kinds of things are very difficult to measure. It's probably a guesstimate, and hence not all that valuable.

EDITED TO ADD: Does this include BASE?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

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When you have been jumping for a while you don't even think about the risk.

I dunno ... I think after jumping for a while (coming up to 5 years for me) you are MORE aware of the risks involved, and put more effort into avoiding them. Perhaps we do it subconsciously to some degree, but with experience comes knowledge and wisdom. And risk management is a big part of wisdom!



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how do i rationalize it? im not entirely sure i have. seriously. why do i do it? because it has got to be the most intense pleasure and overall experience ive ever felt. i am well aware of the risks i take by doing it; i ponder them deeply on the ride to altitude and think of backing out every time. but, when that door opens, i realize mishaps are relatively rare and i do have a backup and i have had training on when to judge its necessary to fix a problem or use plan b. i have seen several people use a reserve and have never seen anyone have a double malfunction, so the thought of planting myelf in the ground isnt what i worry about. i dont worry about going unconscious and planting myself either as my rig has an automatic activation device should that happen. what i do worry about is landing smoothly on approach. i know there are serious risks, but they are so rare that the intense plesure of diving overrides them. everything you do has risks. statistically, doing 17 jumps a year equals the risk of driving 10,000 miles a year. everyone knows the risks of just driving down the street, but most of us do it anyway. you just accept that the chances are smaller that it will happen than that it wont, and you go on. i also rationalize it by thinking that if i die doing something i love, i am luckier than somone who dies slowly in a hospital bed. "its not tragic to die doing something you love" as patrick swayze, a real life skydiver, said in Point Break. i agree.

doug
hey, i was stupid before stupid was cool!

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I think after jumping for a while (coming up to 5 years for me) you are MORE aware of the risks involved..............Some of us choose canopies based on what will land us safely 100 out of 100 times, rather than the fastest canopy we can get. Some of us sit out when the winds get bad, or when the weather's about to get nasty. Some of us avoid loads where the chances of an injury are high, or avoid DZ's where the aircraft are unsafe.
---------------------------------------------------------

Would you not say that these become more judgemental calls based on experiance. The more experianced you become the "supposedly" better your judegemnt would be. High winds more chance of been hurt, smaller canopy thean I can handle, the more chance of been hurt.
I would say (eg)deciding to jump a smaller canopy than you can handle and hoping to get away withit is a risk, but if you had made judgemental calls leading up to jumping a smaller canopy thr risk is almost non existant, yes things can and do go wrong but the risk factor has been significantly reduced.
That's why I said "When you have been jumping for a while you don't even think about the risk."
Becasue all decisions made up to the point of going up in the plane have been "will I make down safely"

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As Push said, what time is it they compared? From exiting the plane to landing? Freefall time? Or flying time? Is BASE included? As I do not have the Plane & Pilot issue, could you check in it if they give a clue about these questions? Because the comparison is very interesting but if one knows what they are comparing.



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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I found this article written by Peter Katz, it is really interesting, "When Good Pilots Make Bad Decisions"
Plane & Pilot, July 2002: p42. :

"How Leisure Activities Compare"

Activity Fatalities per mil. hours

-Skydiving 128.71
-General Aviation 10.11
-Motorcycling 8.80
-Scuba Diving 1.98
-Swimming 1.07
-Snowmobile 0.88
-water skiing 0.28
-bicycling 0.26

Quote


Well, first you have to decide the basis of the comparison? Risk per jump compared to risk per flight hour? Risk per year of participation in each activity? Reduction in life expectancy? ...



Well heck, I don't know? But then who can really calculate life expectancy anyway... I guess I could get my calculator out and bleed down the numbers... but I don't see the need....

.

Who has a million hours skydiving? Definition: STATISTICS: A highly scientific, and mathematically precise way to state a half-truth innacurately...And besides, statistics don't kill people...people kill people.

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.

Who has a million hours skydiving? Definition: STATISTICS: A highly scientific, and mathematically precise way to state a half-truth innacurately...And besides, statistics don't kill people...people kill people.



Another definiton for statistics:

They are like a bikini, show everything but the most important...

As in everything, there are good, serious, well performed statistics and there are the other kind. Anyway, good statistics cannot be ignored, one just has to be able to draw the right conclusions.



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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I've only been skydiving for 5 weeks and put in 26 jumps. The risks of skydiving bothered the hell out of me. From when you first sign that wavier to everytime you see the disclaimer "Skydiving is a dangerous sport. Serious injury or death may occur" Well it goes something like that. I did tend to freak myself out on a few jumps with all the risks going through my head. I remember doing a gear check (again) on the plane when I realized I was wearing rig #13. Gulp! That actually turned out to be my favorite rig for some reason and I always tried to get that one. A few weeks ago someone told me fear and faith cannot exist in the same place. That really sank into me and now I feel very good about the sport. So the trick for me was to increase my faith. I do a complete gear check and make mental notes of everything so I am not second guessing myself on the plane. When I first started and the instructors were doing the gear checks I was always preoccupied with thoughts of.."gee...I hope he remembered everything" Anyway...enough rambling. The gains I get from skydiving outweigh the risks.

Cielos azules amigos

Ed

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Thanks for all the replies guys and gals. Keep 'em coming. I must say that everyone I know thinks I am totally insane for jumping out of a plane with two parachutes, an RSL and an AAD, yet they're perfectly happy to free-climb El Capitan or similar.

The thing that got me interested in the subject is the fact that I'm terrified of heights, so did my first jump to get over it. It didn't really work as well as I hoped, because once you've jumped and your canopy is open, that fear of splattering into the ground is gone, yet standing on the roof of a four storey building still makes me feel sick. Thus I took up rock climbing, thinking that voluntarily going up would do more for my vertigo than falling down under canopy. Unfortunately even when I'm only about twenty feet up I start shaking pathetically!

To me the risk of skydiving is lower than the risk of climbing: two parachutes, RSL, AAD - as compared to rope fraying on rock, me falling from rock, protection giving way, rockfall, mess on ground. Does this look like I've got it a bit backward to anyone else?

Nick

This username sucks, so I'm BBKid now instead. Replies, insults, sexual favours and death threats to be sent there from now on.

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