Night jumps

[billvon 2,379]

>should we require student drivers going through driver's education to
> drive down the interstate at night without the headlights on just to
> aquire their driver's license?

No, but driving down the highway at night with their headlights on is a reasonable requirement. Sometimes people drive at night. It would suck to not even know how the high beams worked.

>if it's as cool, and safe as some claim, why then would the DZO's
> NOT sign a statement that would compensate for any injuries that
> have the high probability of occuring for adding this additional risk
> to our sport?

No DZO's I know of have ever signed a statement saying they would compensate you due to injuries sustained from flying in an otter. Woudl you therefore refuse to fly in an otter?

Night jump training teaches you how to jump and safely land without your usual "daylight" vision. It is useful if you end up jumping after sunset, or you have to land without full use of your eyes (i.e. blood in them, fogged visor.) It is not required; you can choose not to do any night jumps if the prospect worries you. It's a good idea in terms of continuing skydiver education; it may keep you alive someday.

[LouDiamond 1]

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>I don't know what your DZO's reasoning for not having lights is but it
>can't be based on anything with the words "common sense" in it.

We did a night jump back in NY on a sorta warm spring day with some snow still on the ground. The moon was full; there was really no need for lights. Between the moon and the snow on the ground it seemed no darker than a dusk jump.

I have no problem with that. In fact, if you look at my post you will see I mention natural illumination(such as a full moon) as being suitable.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[crutch 0]

I agree totally with you, the well rounded skydiver is the one I want at my DZ dooling out advice to the newer ones.
As far as me having an attitude as an S&TA toward whiners. The USPA makes the rules very black and white, but it seems most of us want to bend them to fit our needs and desires (for some it may be fears of night jumps). Most of the people in these forums started jumping in the last few years (less than 4). You don't realize how much safer the sport has become in the years I have been it. When I did my first big load (100-way in 91), a woman who was one of the best skydivers in the world was not allowed on unless she turned her AAD off. To most of ya'll this is unthinkable in this day and age, but back then when AAD's went off for no reason at 13,000', maybe you could understand the concern of people diving after her.
The USPA has done a very good job of raising the safety level of our sport, I am proud to be a part of that. But for all you whiners out there (the AFF course is too hard, why do I have to do night jumps etc.) maybe we have made it so safe that you have survived longer than you were suppose to. For example, years ago a guy snag his cut-away handle on exit and it got pulled out. He didn't do anything till his AAD went off. We asked him to leave our drop zone and not come back, is that so wrong. Yeah the sport is safer now and he got to live, but if he wasn't going to save himself, why should we risk him jumping with us.
So back to night jumps. We do them all the time down here. There is a breifing for everyone involved, no matter how many you have. We put two cars in the field with their lights on to indicate wind direction more than anything. And must of all everyone is required to be safe and have a good time!

blue skies,

art

[rgoper 0]

i guess for all of the sky divers here that have made "accidental" night jumps that wasn't planned all had (at least) "C" licenses? what if you went up in a jumpship and didn't have even an "A" license, and it "accidently" got dark? c'mon...........

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[AggieDave 6]

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what if you went up in a jumpship and didn't have even an "A" license, and it "accidently" got dark? c'mon...........

Then that should be brought up to the S&TA, since if they don't have an A, they're a student and have to have landed BY sunset.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JJohnson 0]

Cool, now you are on to something...night jumps to get your A license!!!

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[quade 3]

Going back to the original discussion for a moment . . .

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I think everyone would agree that it is safer to have an illuminated landing area during night jumps than to have one that is not lit up. However, I know a few people (a DZO included) who think it is "wussing out" to do your night jumps into a landing area that is illuminated.

I think you have to understand why the requirement is there to begin with. At least, this is my feeling so please humor me for a minute or two.

The USPA licensing requirements are not simply merit badges to be earned for bragging rights, they are levels of demonstrated proficiency and knowledge that progressively grant privileges to the jumper so that he or she may participate in different activities.

Some of these activities require higher levels of proficiency and training otherwise, history has shown that they are below a certain threshold of safety.

For example;

Among the different things that a D License allows a person to do is participate in Open Field and Level 1 demos. Because demos can be held at various times, including night, it would be wise to require a certain level of night training and proficiency.

While it is possible or even probable that a demo would be held at night with a lighted field, it is also highly possible that the demo might have a bad spot and the jumpers would be required to land off field in the dark.

So, with just that one example, I think it's pretty easy to see where I come down on this topic. The field should definately be dark for the training purposes and to meet the requirements of the D License.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[hookitt 0]

Hello Mr Crutch.

Too bad we're not near each other to discuss this over a beer. It's more fun that way.

You didn't answer my post in any way. You blew it off completely to once again call people names. I find that an impressive Instructional tool. Good on you! You're my new role model.

(( If we were having that beer... you'd laugh at me and the conversation would continue)

My first after sunset jump was Long before my official first night jump... Way later and darker than it should have been with out Night Preperation. Lets just say it was night cuz it was. Does this have any thing to do with a d-license? No, I wasn't trained for it. Loosen your skull cap man.

I'll tell you this... I buy many analogies.. but this ==> When you learn to drive a car, you need to learn to parallel park isn't one of them.

Do you let just any d-license holder jump on the beach?? You know quite well that just because a d license is in possesion, it does not necessarilly constitute a high level of skill.

What purpose does performing a night jump have to do with jumping on the beach? ...during the day....when the jumps occur any ways.

I did not mince any words.. You chose to do that.

I have not said to dilute the program, you are putting words in my mouth. Re read my comments. The program (which is changing), is too easy. A d License holder will need 500 jumps (and what ever else.... I"ll look it up later)

I still feel that night jumps should not be mandatory to obtain a d- lisense but my opinion has no bearing on the issue.Since Night jumps are Mandatory to receive a d-license, many people who will never ever do them again, will go do one. Soon there after they will forget every thing about it. (hence, this has nothing to do with parallel parking)

There is that chance they think it's so cool they'll sign up for another. Those of you who never do another one are a bunch of whiners

* hookitt dresses in his flame retardent jammies and kicks back*

Cheers yo!
----------

To re-answer the original question. I prefer but do not require a well lit landing area. Either way is fine with me. However I'd recommend a lit landing area if possibe.
-
-

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Kris 0]

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i guess for all of the sky divers here that have made "accidental" night jumps that wasn't planned all had (at least) "C" licenses? what if you went up in a jumpship and didn't have even an "A" license, and it "accidently" got dark? c'mon...........

Check your SIM, only a B-license is required. And as for the answer, the jumper should have enough sense to hopefully get out early or ride down. Or, an S&TA would hopefully notice and make the call since, until you have your "A", they are classified as a student and must be on the ground by sunset.

But, again, it comes down to personal responsibility. The only person penultimately responsible for a jumper's safety is that jumper themself.

Kris

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[billvon 2,379]

>When I did my first big load (100-way in 91), a woman who was one
> of the best skydivers in the world was not allowed on unless she
> turned her AAD off.

I remember getting off student status around that time and being glad I could finally disconnect that damn AAD - no more misfires!

[rgoper 0]

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Since Night jumps are Mandatory to receive a d-license, many people who will never ever do them again, will go do one. Soon there after they will forget every thing about it.

this is my point exactly. if night jumps are mandatory for a D, then there should be "currency night jumps" as well. i know of way more than one sky diver that has a D, and has never made a night jump, we all do. i will do my night jumps in conditions i deem appropriate, acceptable and safe. but to set the record straight, for me, not because others choose to look down their noses at sky divers who don't or haven't done them yet. and this b.s. notion of others seeming to think that those of us who do not have D's are not as safe as others that do have D's.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

[kallend 1,619]

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what's next? should we require student drivers going through driver's education to drive down the interstate at night without the headlights on just to aquire their driver's license? what would it prove? it would indicate poor judgement. i respect this sport, i'm anal about safety, this is not a safe sport during normal opps, so why add another element to heighten the danger aspect of skydiving. if it's as cool, and safe as some claim, why then would the DZO's NOT sign a statement that would compensate for any injuries that have the high probability of occuring for adding this additional risk to our sport?

Richard, you're right...skydiving isn't safe. But I can definitely see the need for the requirement.

I have been on loads that have gone up with plenty of daylight left but we haven't been able to get out of the plane until almost dark because of traffic or other issues. In those cases, having the information I recieved from a night jump brief and the experience from a pre-planned night jump would have been a godsend. Instead, it lead to some sore muscles and a torn jumpsuit.

You don't have to get a night jump. There's nothing stopping you from keeping your C-license for as long as you want, provided that you don't aspire for a rating higher than Coach.

I am the recently converted on this issue. I too never wanted to do one but needed to get my D to keep my rating. I received a brief from a great S&TA, we had everything planned out, and we (the jumpers) were constantly communicating and watching out for each other. Truthfully, I don't know why I didn't do it sooner. To call it a beautiful experience would do it an injustice.

What is the relevance of its beauty to the discussion?

Your position is quite illogical, since a "D" license is not required for a sunset load, and, as many have observed, no-one is forced to get a "D" anyway.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sar911 0]

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As far as me having an attitude as an S&TA toward whiners.

You shouldn’t have an attitude, at least not publicly, you should be above that. Why, as an S&TA and as a representative of the USPA are you degrading people on a public forum as “Whiners”? Does the USPA condone such non-professionalism of its S&TA’s? It takes away from any creditably of the context and your many year of experience that your comments may have had and would make anyone interested in going to your DZ for training look elsewhere. Who would want to go to a DZ where the S&TA may talk about them publicly like that?

[sar911 0]

As for the D-lic. requirement to make beach jumps, that is a individual DZ management requirement and not a USPA requirement. Talk to the S&TA and the DZ to get that changed.

[pilotdave 0]

I don't really think night jumps should necessarily be required for the D license, but night jump training should. That'll prepare jumpers to make a night jump if they have to for some reason (like if the sun sets suddenly while they are in freefall
My night jump was a 2 way. To get my D licence I'll need to make another one solo. What for? If I had gotten both jumps out of the way that weekend, are those night jumps really going to prove anything in 10 years () when I actually get my D?

Oh yeah, and for the original topic, where I did my night jump they parked 2 rows of cars in the landing area with their headlights facing inward, angled toward the wind. From the air the cars make a big arrow telling us which way to land. Very effective.

Dave

[crutch 0]

I have no problem telling people how I feel about them. As far as the people who know me feel, most of them respect me for it. If someone whines to much, I tell them, it is up to them to deal with it. If you jumped here, you would problably not be one of the people who got invited on demo jumps just because of your attitude. I captain one of the most professional skydiving demo teams in the area. We also run a small instructional school (tandems and AFF) and you are the first to accuse me of being unprofessional. My fellow skydivers all know know how I feel about whining, just shut-up, do it and don't worry about it.

I believe you have taken my calling some people whiners a little too far. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. Don't drag the rest of us having a good time within the rules (very good rules, I might add) down because you don't like them.

One more thing, the beach jumps were done in conjunction of a festival at the beach. Due to the size of the landing area, the insurance waiver mandated D-licensed skydivers only. And yes, someone's comment of D-licensed people sometimes aren't capable. An AFF instructor almost hit a small child outside the landing area when she decided to be "cool" and do a swoop landing. Although she didn't whine when we told her she was done for the day.

blue skies,

art

[jerm 0]

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And your sarcasm was not nearly as necessary as my statement.

the way i see it you were insulting my intelligence. so my statement stands.

I was brazenly insulting the intelligence of anyone who thinks it's safe.

I don't THINK that applies to you. You're welcome to correct me.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[TitaniumLegs 8]

As an S&TA (and AFF/I, PRO and a few other things) I, too, am fed up with the whining. Well, maybe not "fed up", but I agree with the requirement for night jumps, since they need to be in there somewhere because demos can be at night. If you say, pu them in the Pro rating requirements, that means non-Pro D-license holders can't do night demos, no matter how big the landing area, and people will whine about that.

Peter

(>o|-<

If you don't believe me, ask me.

[sar911 0]

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I have no problem telling people how I feel about them.

Which is part of the problem, lack of tact as an S&TA.

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If someone whines to much, I tell them, it is up to them to deal with it.

So you do not think that it is within your responsibility to help them and educate them but rather degrade them?

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If you jumped here, you would probably not be one of the people who got invited on demo jumps just because of your attitude.

Why because my “attitude” is that in your capacity as an S&TA you should act more professionally as an S&TA?

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and you are the first to accuse me of being unprofessional

That you know of. So you are saying that as an S&TA, that accusing skydivers of “whining” on a public forum is acting professionally? That this is the best way that you can deal with the issue? Please understand that if you had made those comments personally and not as representing yourself as an S&TA we would never have had this conversation, but the bottom line is that you did.

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I believe you have taken my calling some people whiners a little too far.

This may be, but I have always looked up to S&TA’s as the cream of the crop and hold them, as I believe the USPA does to a higher level of conduct. Do you think that most people would want to go to a DZ where the top person talked about people like that?

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If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. Don't drag the rest of us having a good time within the rules (very good rules, I might add) down because you don't like them.

This one I am confused about, as I have never questioned any USPA rule. In fact if you read any post that I have ever made you will see that I have staunchly supported all of the rules of the USPA and in fact, I said that if anyone did not like or agree with a rule then have it changed, but until it is changed learn how to abide with it.

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One more thing, the beach jumps were done in conjunction of a festival at the beach. Due to the size of the landing area, the insurance waiver mandated D-licensed skydivers only. And yes, someone's comment of D-licensed people sometimes aren't capable. An AFF instructor almost hit a small child outside the landing area when she decided to be "cool" and do a swoop landing. Although she didn't whine when we told her she was done for the day.

All I said in my prior post in reply to the comments about a D-Lic. requirement for beach jumps was “As for the D-lic. requirement to make beach jumps, that is a individual DZ management requirement and not a USPA requirement. Talk to the S&TA and the DZ to get that changed.” This was said so as to direct the individules as to where to go to discuss it with. I do not have any problems with it myself.

[TitaniumLegs 8]

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Heck, how much is your parachute worth? Have a mal and chances are you'll never see it again.

So put lights on your risers before you pack. Chemlights should work, right?
What's that? You say you can't see chemlights on your canopy from a distance? Then how are they acceptable illumination for jumpers per the requirements in the FARs?

(Not flaming you Tim. Luv u man!)

Peter

(>o|-<

If you don't believe me, ask me.

[sar911 0]

What's that? You say you can't see chemlights on your canopy from a distance? Then how are they acceptable illumination for jumpers per the requirements in the FARs?

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They not !!!

***The SIM and FAR's
D. Special equipment
1. A light visible for at least three statute miles displayed from opening until the jumper is on the ground (an FAA requirement for protection from aircraft)

Chem. or cylume lights are not acceptable or rated for three-mile visibility. If you are putting them on there to find your canopy that is another issue.

[hookitt 0]

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(Not flaming you Tim. Luv u man!)

Yes you are! (sniff sniff ) ..LOL!!!

Notice I was already wearing my Flame retardent Jammies ... it's not even warm!

That last post was for The person I replied to. I'm sure ya figured that out any way.

Like I said...as my new roll model would say. You're a bunch of whiners

Ok just kidding.

About chem lights, After a nicely cutaway canopy WITH chem lights on the risers was cutaway, those Chem lights were no where to be seen. Funny how flailing fabric can completely wrap up the risers and fall into the weeds. Ultra light pilots can be very cool

Well If you say it's necessary then Heck...One for the team.... I'll do it! I'm night jumping!! Any of you guys with me!!

Cheers

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[TitaniumLegs 8]

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Chem. or cylume lights are not acceptable or rated for three-mile visibility. If you are putting them on there to find your canopy that is another issue.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. My apologies for the weakness of my sarcasm.

Peter

(>o|-<

If you don't believe me, ask me.

[stratostar 5]

wish I had a nickel for every AFF lv-1-2 & tandems I have videoed way into the twilight, dark on landing, and the dzo & the s&ta were the jm's, happens more then people want to admit!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

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Going back to the original discussion for a moment . . .

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I think everyone would agree that it is safer to have an illuminated landing area during night jumps than to have one that is not lit up. However, I know a few people (a DZO included) who think it is "wussing out" to do your night jumps into a landing area that is illuminated.

I think you have to understand why the requirement is there to begin with. At least, this is my feeling so please humor me for a minute or two.

The USPA licensing requirements are not simply merit badges to be earned for bragging rights, they are levels of demonstrated proficiency and knowledge that progressively grant privileges to the jumper so that he or she may participate in different activities.

Some of these activities require higher levels of proficiency and training otherwise, history has shown that they are below a certain threshold of safety.

For example;

Among the different things that a D License allows a person to do is participate in Open Field and Level 1 demos. Because demos can be held at various times, including night, it would be wise to require a certain level of night training and proficiency.

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While it is possible or even probable that a demo would be held at night with a lighted field, it is also highly possible that the demo might have a bad spot and the jumpers would be required to land off field in the dark.

thanks for backing up my earlier post, as I said on some night jumps I have chose to land way from the "lighted landing" area it is very good practice for those of us that do night demos BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW, SHIT HAPPENS, and being hung out in the dark(long spot, strong uppers) is no time to lose your cool, demo or no demo.sink or swoop? I'll take the canopy that I can sink into a back yard or a rooftop or the parking lot at the quickie mart.

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So, with just that one example, I think it's pretty easy to see where I come down on this topic. The field should definately be dark for the training purposes and to meet the requirements of the D License.

damm good example!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo