Airflow 0 #1 March 1, 2003 I recently head someone say that they were going to begin doing tandems his year with 14 year olds Any thoughts? *** "They're all beauiful until they're all snarling after your trust fund like a pack of ravening wolves" (Green Goblin) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blewaway5 0 #2 March 1, 2003 Wish I'd have hung out around them when I was 14 Truman Sparks for President Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 March 1, 2003 QuoteI recently head someone say that they were going to begin doing tandems his year with 14 year olds Any thoughts? Not a good idea. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #4 March 1, 2003 If they're in the US and using Vector systems, they may want to reconsider that in light of the RWS user agreement (especially item 11...) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airflow 0 #5 March 1, 2003 This particular dropzone uses Strong equipment. *** "And that's al I got to say about that" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #6 March 1, 2003 Tandem equipment manufacturers only make equipment. As much as they may want to keep a measure of control when it comes to training and procedures, it's legally out of their hands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #7 March 1, 2003 Lisa What if you buy used equipment or otherwise don't sign the agreement? Brett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #8 March 1, 2003 They also issue ratings on it. If you jump a rig with out the rating thats breaking the FAR's and can lead to some serious issues for the pilot and jumper at your DZ. Or at least thats how it used to work.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
floormonkey 0 #9 March 1, 2003 If you sell RWS equipment, you are required to notify RWS, who will then send the buyer a letter to "register" with them. If you are caught doing an underage tandem on RWS equip, they offer you a chance to "donate" a good chunk of change to their legal defense fund or they will pull your vector rating-then it's no more tandems for you (at least on a vector) ps. this is what happened to a RWS tandem master already, they may have changed thier policy. i seem to remember them releasing a memo that states they will pull your ticket if you are caught, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpull 0 #10 March 1, 2003 When you sign the paperwork for a Vector Tandem rating, you sign the agreement to follow their rules.QuoteLisa What if you buy used equipment or otherwise don't sign the agreement? Brett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #11 March 1, 2003 I think Bill Booth said it best in this excerpt from his article Jumping with Underage Tandem Students For instance, a single lawsuit involving a USPA Tandem Master, jumping a Cypres equipped Vector tandem, with a PD reserve, and a Strong main, with no valid waiver, would most likely result in the end of Relative Workshop, PD, Strong Enterprises, Airtec, and USPA. Plus, of course, the foolish Drop Zone that was willing to "take the risk." If you haven't yet been sued for $10,000,000, then you don't have the right to say this is unrealistic. It is not only realistic, it is a near certainty. Think what would happen to our sport with all those companies gone. Not worth it in my opinion. KrisSky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 March 1, 2003 QuoteThey also issue ratings on it. If you jump a rig with out the rating thats breaking the FAR's and can lead to some serious issues for the pilot and jumper at your DZ. Or at least thats how it used to work. Technically, you don't have to be certified by the manufacturer anymore to be legal. The FAA recognized USPA's tandem course, so as long as you are a USPA tandem instructor, with a current medical, you are legal. This is going to make tandem instructor renewals interesting. What if I don't renew my Vector/Sigma rating with RWS, but I do renew it with USPA? Technically, I am still legal. Here's another one: How can I renew my Eclipse rating? The company went out of business. So if I can't renew my Eclipse rating, can I still do tandem jumps with an Eclipse tandem rig without renewing through the manufacturer? Strong still wants to certify instructors, they also want to control what mains and reserves are assembled with their container. Once tandem jumper no longer needed a waiver, it became the assembling rigger's responsibility to determine compatability of components. Legally now an Icarus tandem canopy can be used with a Strong tandem harness/container. Another issue: If, for example, I am an Eclipse tandem instructor, certified by the manufacturer, then I send the paperwork to USPA and become a USPA tandem instructor, which means that I am legal to sign off "working" tandems so that the jumps can count towards a students licenses and then I add Vector/Sigma tandem ratings, can I sign off a student "working" tandem towards their "A" license using a Vector or Sigma tandem system? And another one: Can the manufacturer legally require it's apointed tandem examiners to file tandem candidate paperwork with the manufacturer? Legally all the Examiner has to file the paperwork with is USPA for him and the tandem instructor candidate to be legal. And another one: Once all the current Eclispe tandem examiners retire, quit, etc, will no one be able to get certified on the Eclipse tandem system? There no longer is a manufacturer to appoint/certify Eclipse Tandem Examiners. What a mess. And it doesn't seem as if anyone wants to clear it up. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danne 0 #13 March 1, 2003 Here in Sweden we do that all the time. On the other hand we dont have any problems with lawsuits, that seems to be a specific US-problem. As long as the student is old enough to understand what he/she is getting them self into and they are big enough to fit the harness, I dont see a problem. BR, /D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #14 March 3, 2003 QuoteI recently head someone say that they were going to begin doing tandems his year with 14 year olds Any thoughts? Thats the limit for tandems in Australia. 14 for tandems and 16 for solo.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #15 March 3, 2003 No problem in the Netherlands either. However, though not required by our BSR's (that say nothing about the passengers age) we changed to 14 as minimum age in our advertisement - but we waive that occasionally if the kid convinces us... There is no technical problem if the harness fits - just don't go chasing small legs and prepare for a sooooft and sloooow opening and little cell pressure/penetration... If you tell the kid what you want he might even open the parachute for you... http://www.skycam.nl/photos/at_steven.html I don't think the manufacturers can stop this going on outside the USA. They never tried and they must know by now... (wouldn't take an american citizen though...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vidiot 0 #16 March 3, 2003 Did a nice beach jump with my daughter (9 1/2) this New Years Eve. Her girl friend did her third one on this occasion. Admittedly, both are 'DZ Kids'. Edited: There's no legal age limit for Tandems over here, although 12 is a recommended minimum age. KlausMy Logbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #17 March 3, 2003 A long time ago, I did tandem jumps with a couple of 13-year-old German girls. The first dive went great. The second dive scared the shorts off of me! Something about her having a death grip on my left thumb when I really needed that thumb to open a parachute! Oh and we made that jump long before Cypri were invented. Now I only jump with students 18 or older. In North America, age limits are set by ugly, scum-sucking, repulsive, louthsome, bottom-feeding lawyers who make their living off of other peoples' misery. Did I say lrepulsive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vidiot 0 #18 March 3, 2003 Quote The second dive scared the shorts off of me! Something about her having a death grip on my left thumb when I really needed that thumb to open a parachute! Nasty situation, but how did she get a grip on your thumb in the first place? I knew there had to be a reson for those secondary releases...My Logbook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #19 March 8, 2003 ...and hearin lies the problem. Who is LEGALLY responsible? Is there any entity LEGALLY responsible for setting procedures? I'm saying NO! The FAA leaves it very ambiguous. I think by design. If you read it literally, a tandem jump is now a legal, accepted, and NORMALLY REGULATED way of jumping out of an airplane. The only entities that are able to stop me from doing a tandem, with anyone, are dropzones! And they'll only do that if it's financially detrimental. brettpobastad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #20 March 8, 2003 As far as the pilot is concerned, a tandem rig is just like any other piece of skydiving equipment. Brett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #21 March 8, 2003 Lisa How do I get that goddamn 'newbie' thing offa my profile? Brett"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #22 March 8, 2003 Quote How do I get that goddamn 'newbie' thing offa my profile? Make 19 more posts. Don't feel bad, you're in good company. Bill Booth, Kate Cooper, George Galloway, and Dan BC are all newbies here too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettpobastad 0 #23 March 9, 2003 Thanks Lisa ....are you sure you want 19 more messages from me? Brett Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #24 March 9, 2003 Relative Workshop, at least, is going to honor the USPA rating, but you still have to jump through the RWS hoops to get rated on their equipment. One you're certified to jump a certain manufacturer's gear, isn't it YOUR responsibility to make sure that you're current and safe? Of course that's scary , but no scarier than it was when each manufacturer was holding the certifications for JMs, IMHO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
