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bergh

Pull out or BOC

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i used to jump BOC, and once i tried pull out i loved it. it is safer in the case of a horse shoe. it's nearly impossible to have one. that's one of the main reason i like it. it's a very clean deployment. you don't get pilot chute hessitation because it is pulled out of your hand. and if your low, it make you feel good when you pull because you know that you'll have something out, because you just opened the container ;)

but it is a different pull and somthing you have to get used to. and now a day's it's not a hole lot safer, with the bridal protection on rigs and all that stuff, it hardly makes a difference.

jump em both, and then decide, if you can.

later

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Yeppers to what Kelly said.
I actually preferred pull out, till I started jumping camera with big wings, then I was advised to go BOC.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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Yeppers to what Kelly said.
I actually preferred pull out, till I started jumping camera with big wings, then I was advised to go BOC.



it's a good idea to jump BOC with camera wings, but i don't. but i think i may one of these days when i get another rig.

later

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Ah yes Kelly, but I had big wings, think huge phucqin' wings.



like the flite suit D wings, or what ever the biggest ones are. or the Tony suit C wings. that's what i have. i own a Flite suit with the huge wings, and have jumped the C wings. i don't know, i haven't had a problem, yet :P:S

later

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Yeah!
Go for a pull-out because it equals more reserve repacks and I make my living off of reserve repacks!
Yeah!

On a more serious note, T.K. Donle of the Relative Workshop posted an excellent article on this topic a couple of years back. The gist of his article was that pull-outs require significant amounts of arm muscle to pull, which can lead to deploying with one shoulder low, which can produce problems with heavily-loaded canopies. I know from personal experience that if you deploy a Diablo (wing-loading 1.6) - with shoulders uneven - you will have to use your reserve.

The other factor is that an inflated pilotchute provides far more tension (about 80 pounds) on the pin than most skydivers can pull with their arms. This is an academic argument because few skydivers can close a rig with more than 20 pounds of tension on the pin.

In conclusion, pull-outs had the right idea from the start about handle location. It took the throw-out crowd another 20 years to catch up on handle location, but now that we standardized on BOC, the difference between modern pull-out and modern BOC is tiny.

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Yeah!
Go for a pull-out because it equals more reserve repacks and I make my living off of reserve repacks!
Yeah!

On a more serious note, T.K. Donle of the Relative Workshop posted an excellent article on this topic a couple of years back. The gist of his article was that pull-outs require significant amounts of arm muscle to pull, which can lead to deploying with one shoulder low, which can produce problems with heavily-loaded canopies. I know from personal experience that if you deploy a Diablo (wing-loading 1.6) - with shoulders uneven - you will have to use your reserve.

The other factor is that an inflated pilotchute provides far more tension (about 80 pounds) on the pin than most skydivers can pull with their arms. This is an academic argument because few skydivers can close a rig with more than 20 pounds of tension on the pin.

In conclusion, pull-outs had the right idea from the start about handle location. It took the throw-out crowd another 20 years to catch up on handle location, but now that we standardized on BOC, the difference between modern pull-out and modern BOC is tiny.



Until you have a horseshoe, in which case the difference can be that of life or death.

If you have a closing loop failure or dislodged pin with a throwout, you have a horseshoe - and you have the rest of your life to clear it.

With a pullout, you have a higher than usual opening.

I jump pullouts preferentially, to include jumping camera with huge wings and with ellipticals that are sensitive to body position on opening.

YMMV.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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The debate often distills down to what kind of high speed mals you prefer - a PC in tow or a total. Throwouts are more likely to give you PC in tows, pullouts are more likely to give you totals (due to lost pud/stuck pin.) Other issues:

-Throwouts often work better for larger wings (camera/wingsuit) since you can get the PC into cleaner air before releasing it.

-Pullouts can handle out-of-sequence deployments (i.e. pin coming out) more readily than throwouts.

-Pullouts put more bulk inside the container.

-Pullouts _can_ give you better protection against premature deployments due to fewer exposed deployment components; this depends on the rig.

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My first Racer came with a pull out.

I jumped it for a while but didn't like the handle
being at the bottom of the pilot chute, so I switched
over to a throw out.

I jumped that for a while but didn't like that the
container didn't open when I pulled.

So I took a throw out pilot chute, sewed a light
piece of webbing from the handle at the apex
to the skirt with a small loop at the skirt for a pin.

I packed it like a pull out.

When pulling it worked like a pull out, but as
soon as the pin came out it was like a throw out
with the handle at the top of the pilot chute.

All that took about 150 jumps. I decided I didn't
like any of it and went back to a ripcord and
spring loaded pilot chute for a long time.

Skr

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Yeah!
Go for a pull-out because it equals more reserve repacks and I make my living off of reserve repacks!



hehehe, well i will admit, you have to be bit more careful packing. and Yoshi knows all about that. he packed a total for one of our friends, and it is very easy to miss. so it takes an extra 30 sec.s to pack, and riggerrob's bussiness will go back down :P;)

and as to it being a harder pull, i don't think so. if you have your gromet out, then it is no problem, but if you have your gromet covered by the closing flaps, you could have a hard pull. and someone said something about droping it, well, i have droped mine once or twice and i had no problem finding it flaping around to pull. so that is really no big deal.

later

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My first Racer came with a pull out.

I jumped it for a while but didn't like the handle
being at the bottom of the pilot chute, so I switched
over to a throw out.



and the damn racer "dildo's" for the handl suck ass. i hate those. they don't seam too secure either.

later

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On older gear, which was generally larger, pullouts were harder for people without great arm strength. I'm no weakling, but trying to pull a pullout when the reach is just about as far as I can get my arm down and behind me was not a strong move.

That would have been true of a BOC throw-out, too. Gear has changed, hasn't it.

Of course, I had an FOL then, and loved it.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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>



Since when?

Any way, personally, the only way I would go back to throw out is if I were using a wing suit. Every thing riggerrob said is true but I highly doubt that his business increases trememdously with pullouts :P:D

It' depends on the design of the pullout. Some very reputable Rig manufacturers have poor pullout designs. It is easily fixed but shouldn' have to be. Throw outs have improved dramatically mostly by the developement of Bridle covers and better handle types.

Around 2/3's of my jumps have been on throw outs. Even though I will never go back to throw out, I can hardly recommend getting a pull-out.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
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<>

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Since when?




well, if you want to be really careful, and check everything close. and it does take a bit longer to pack a pull out, for me at least. i can pack a regular boc a bit faster than pull out, but not 30 sec.s faster, just a bit, i'm not even sure how much.

later

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No difference between FOL and ROL for safety. Except that you're throwing the FOL in the same basic direction that you pulled it out, rather than pulling out and then tossing.

Of course, it did mean reverse thread-through leg straps. But since I bruise easy, that was actually the driver for the decision in the first place -- no more bruises on my thighs from the quick-release snaps.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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As not to hijack the thread much more :)... I find it just as quick to pack it inside and close it, rather than close it and pack on the out side.

Bit seriously it's fine either way.. I'll still recommend the Throw out to some one new.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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>so it takes an extra 30 sec.s to pack . . .

I don't find that. The 'extra' time (S-folding the bridle, folding the PC) happens on both types of rigs, really, just in a different order. I do find it harder to close overstuffed pullout containers than overstuffed throwout containers, but I think that's due to the greater bulk inside the container.

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>so it takes an extra 30 sec.s to pack . . .

I don't find that. The 'extra' time (S-folding the bridle, folding the PC) happens on both types of rigs, really, just in a different order. I do find it harder to close overstuffed pullout containers than overstuffed throwout containers, but I think that's due to the greater bulk inside the container.



the reason i said that is to checking, and it wouldn't even be 30 sec. what it comes down to is that the pull out is easier to screw up. and for some of the people here at home, it takes a bit longer. i tend to do a bit of closer gear check when i switched to pull out.

if it makes everyone feel better, forget i said it.

later

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Hi Billivon
Just like to add some things...

>
Quote

The debate often distills down to what kind of high speed mals you prefer - a PC in tow or a total.

PC in tow...I'll chose a closed container and
go for clear reserve deployment.

>Pullouts can handle out-of-sequence deployments (i.e. pin coming out) more readily than throwouts.

If the pin comes out, container opens, PC should be
first thing out. That's not out of sequence.

>Pullouts put more bulk inside the container.
It's gotta go somewhere...and for the life of me,
I could never understand why anyone would stuff
their PC is an elastic sock on the outside of their
rig.

>Pullouts _can_ give you better protection against premature deployments due to fewer exposed deployment components; this depends on the rig.
PC's slipping out of their sock" sorry pouch" does
not appear to be as much an issue as it once was,
but ZP PC are very slippery. Bottom line is we must
protect our gear 100% of the time.
I pack my pull-out system w/lots of tension on the
pin and push it in deep" not half way".
This means on every jump I have a hard pull!!!

-----------------------------------
Mike Wheadon B-3715,HEMP#1
Higher Expectations for Modern Parachutists.

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