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Katzeye

Would you jump with someone you suspected of being high?

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You and I have something in common. I don't get it either. When did we decide we were smarter than the average bear?




years ago.


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I either did not get the memo, or was too high to remember the meeting. If I was smarter, would I pollute the air with burnt jet fuel and spend thousands just to fly nowhere?



skydivers in general are degreed proffessionals, and are type a personalities, and lets face it, we think quite a bit of ourselves. it takes quite a bit of courage, and skill to sky dive, and fly safely, and still we fall short of a "no incident" year. being UTI will only inflate these numbers, and eventually be the beginning of the end of self regulation. i am subject to random UA, although since i'm at the top of the "food chain" i don't have to take mine if i don't want to, but when the lab guys show up, i'm first in line, my men know i don't have to do it, but it makes them feel better about the situation that i have nothing to hide.
--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

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As a tandem master I'm sure I've jumped with high people more times than I know.....

but yes, I would jump with someone if they had been smoking.....in fact I have many times with people, who in their own words said " I never jump without partaking."

It really depends on how high they were. There is a point where too high is too high.
David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."

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I saw someone smoking once and then saw them on the load. I asked him if he thought that was smart and he said he was fine. Then I asked if he told everyone on the load that he was smoking and asked if it was ok that he was under the influence of a mind altering substance. He said no. I said he should think about it.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

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you watch far too many movies..



negative, i've been through training just for this type of observational skill. in my line of work, if i notice someone UTI, and something happens, the buck stops with me, regardless of whether i had anything to do with whatever incident took place, i'm HNIC, i'm responseable, and i take it seriously. 28 years of experience helps as well.



well if thats the criteria you use i'd have to say there is quite a bit that slips by you..or all those you catch are simply fools and should be culled anyway.
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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... their impaired judgement might get me killed...



How can we ever actually measure the extent to which different concentrations of MJ effect our judgment, reaction time, etc... all the necessary things for a good skydive? How can we be certain all people react the same. And who has done these studies or talked to those researchers before making their judgment of the topic?

I know that when I get all broken up and am hospitalized, they give me loads and loads of morphine and it does very little to help me. I've had them inject the the absolute max dose all at once and I didn't even get sleepy the pain actually got worse!

I once had a friend who was a worldcup ski racer, he would get high before every race - said it helped him focus. He even went onto the olympics (drug free). Weed didn't seem to impair his abilities too much... But my sister, give her one puff and she's a looney!

I think the biochemistry of individual human systems is far too complex at science's current understanding to form valid laws around. A law is only really valid in math.

Would I jump with a so called stoner? I think it depends on my prior experiences with that person - While I would definitely be wary and exercise more caution, I also know I skied with one who was always faster and safer than I could ever be sober, so perhaps the same applies here.

Just my .02 USD

Craig

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"How far would you take it? Refuse to be on the same skydive with them? Refuse to be on the same plane load? Refuse to be on the same dz? "

Lets also look at a few other performance affecting influences.
Would you jump on the first load with someone who you know was up till 4 or 5 am doing body shots in the DZ bar?
What about the guy who just drove all night across country to make the first load?
Or jumping with newbies who you know are out of their depth on that 8 way you just got onto?
Or perhaps a person you know doesn't have the skills to land their brand new pocket rocket on an off field landing?
Would you get into a landing pattern with someone who doesn't really fly all that well, or disciplined?
Maybe accept a lift back to the dz from someone who has just had half a dozen beers in the local town of an evening?

Truthfully, the answer is probably yes. But I would tend to keep a wary eye open for things. There aren't any hard and fast rules that I impose on myself regarding my choice of jump pals, I find its best to be flexible and try and adapt my attitude depending on the circumstances.

I'm not afraid that someone will take me out, crash into me or otherwise spoil my skydive. I like to think that I have enough awareness and sufficient basic skills to either avoid a freefall incident, deal with it when it does occur, repair the scratches to my helmet, or fork out for a new Cypres cutter.
I get twitchy in traffic under canopy, so I will tend to take a slightly longer walk, rather than land with the hot pilots.
I'm more worried that the person will biff themselves up and then I have to deal with the emotions of seeing a friend carted off in a meat wagon, due to their own stupidity. I'm kinda selfish about seeing my friends mashed up.
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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How can we ever actually measure the extent to which different concentrations of MJ effect our judgment, reaction time, etc... all the necessary things for a good skydive? How can we be certain all people react the same. And who has done these studies or talked to those researchers before making their judgment of the topic?

***> I agree everyone has a different tolerance to chemical stimulus, but if I see someone smoking up prior to a load I will not be in that particular formation with that person. This is a personal choice I have made, I make no excuses or apologies for it. Its an unknown element of risk that I am not willing to assume. I do not care what anyone does the night before, and on occasion am known to partake.

I know that when I get all broken up and am hospitalized, they give me loads and loads of morphine and it does very little to help me. I've had them inject the the absolute max dose all at once and I didn't even get sleepy the pain actually got worse!

***> morphene works wonderful on me.......I go immediatly to happy land:S......demerol, a morphene dirivative however has virtually no effect on me.

I once had a friend who was a worldcup ski racer, he would get high before every race - said it helped him focus. He even went onto the olympics (drug free). Weed didn't seem to impair his abilities too much... But my sister, give her one puff and she's a looney!

***> Years ago when on off weekends when there were no races I would be trail riding with friends in the mountains, Our group trail rode at nearly a race pace....Jim a good racer and excellent rider would around noon "indulge"........ he swore it made him faster.......maybe it did but he sure couldnt stay on the trail, it was endlessly amusing to follow him as he cut across the trail one way, reacted and then cut across the other way.....he didnt have any problems staying on the trail before lighting that little wooden pipe.

I think the biochemistry of individual human systems is far too complex at science's current understanding to form valid laws around. A law is only really valid in math.

***> We are not talking about laws, we are talking about personal responsibility and choice.

Would I jump with a so called stoner? I think it depends on my prior experiences with that person - While I would definitely be wary and exercise more caution, I also know I skied with one who was always faster and safer than I could ever be sober, so perhaps the same applies here.

***> ok, so you would be cautious, I can understand that, I snowboard with one friend that High, can ride circles around me, but the odds of us having a collision serious enough to render one of us unconcious or dead is very low,
have you ever lost track of someone in freefall? perhaps freeflying? In a five way everyone turns a 360 and suddenly one is just gone? uncomfortable feeling I assure you......now throw in the fact that he in all probability just corked and now is above you, If he was high, I would be extremely worried!! When you are high your sense of time and speed are influenced, and under the influence are they going to do the right thing ?

It comes down to choice, I have made mine, while skydiving I have zero tolerance..........later when the beer light comes on may be a different story.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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:| Generally speaking,, I'd tend to frown on it[:/]
It's not necessary, and we all get "high" just being in a planeful of our friends, and climbing to altitude..
.......But:o... if I KNOW a jumper on the load
has been indulging during jump hours, and has manifested on a load of which I am a part....I might approach it 2 ways....
If they are important to me.... I would calmly express my concerns, beforehand . If they assure me they want to make the decision to go on the skydive,, I think I would grab the slot next to them,,,, during the dirt dive... and sort of " lurk them " throughout the jump,,,with a wary eye....and an alert attitude....[:/]
If it was someone who is NOT important to me...I would again calmly express my concern. If they assure me they want to make the skydive,,,,I would again approach the jump with a wary eye,,, but I would choose a slot slightly AWAY from that person,,, yet close enough to respond, should there be a lapse of judgement, or a traffic conflict, or God forbid,,,a collison..... I'd be watching out.....But it isn't my place to 'rat out' that person.....:| Oh Yes..... regardless ,,, AFTER the jump I would approach that person again,,,, and ask them if they felt better,, skydiving "that way",,,,>:( or if their jump was awkward, uncomfortable, tense ,,,,, and a lesson in humility... Hopefully they will reconsider.. the next time they think about repeating such "sillyness"...

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Man, You got to be out of your mind first of all to even think about it. Second it really adds more risk to the dive. Third dont do it with a bigger formation. Fourth if you both are high doing a two way or something you both are really going to come like really close to dyeing...ie dont...B|

The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all.

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[QUOTE]... their impaired judgement might get me killed...[/QUOTE]

For that matter, where DO you draw the line? Experience counts just as much as the impaired or unimpaired motor skills of someone. What about a skydiver who is known to not watch out for others under canopy? Or one that pulls without waving off in formation? What about a student who doesnt have that many jumps? What about someone who didn't get that much sleep last night? The question was posed, how far do you take it...just exactly how far DO you take it?

---------------------------------------------
let my inspiration flow,
in token rhyme suggesting rhythm...

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For that matter, where DO you draw the line? Experience counts just as much as the impaired or unimpaired motor skills of someone. What about a skydiver who is known to not watch out for others under canopy? Or one that pulls without waving off in formation? What about a student who doesnt have that many jumps? What about someone who didn't get that much sleep last night? The question was posed, how far do you take it...just exactly how far DO you take it?

ok, one at a time...
**the one who is known to not watch for traffic** I dont know about where you jump but up here someone like that is generally pulled aside the first time it happens and if it continues to happen they get grounded. nobody likes unsafe skydivers.

**one that pulls without waving off in formation**
same as above but is generally given the choice of solo's or shape up.

**What about a student who doesnt have that many jumps**
We tend to take them under our wings like the more experienced jumpers did for us, we give them challenging objectives to accomplish based on their present skill levels but tend to keep them in a group of 4 or smaller (for RW) because they are gonna make mistakes.

**What about someone who didn't get that much sleep last night**
This one is a tough one..... when your tired your reflexes are slower than normal. But I dont know any way to regulate this one, Hopefully the person would know his/ her limits.......

But your question is where do I draw the line......
this is not a game of chance to be taken lightly, your decisions help to forge a chain of circumstance that unbroken can lead to your or someone elses death...... make your decisions - this is your right...whatever makes you comfortable....... my decisions are just that.......mine

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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I have jumped with someone who was intoxicated, and I didn't know they were. They have thousands of jumps, know what they're doing, etc etc, but they messed up (as in there they had some safety issues on that jump) that got them noticed for being intoxicated, and they got cut.

If I knew someone was high, drunk, or whatever else, no I would not jump with them.
There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

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Thanks Chief, cheers!

I got no use for my old cite-book reference stuff.

Hey all, there's more urban legend stuff about concealing intoxication than there are stories about stars in ER's with gerbils in their colons.

Yes, symptoms for specific drugs can be identified. Persons, even me!, can be certified as experts by the court to identify specific intoxication and use it as probable cause to arrest. Once arrested on legitimate probable cause, SURPRISE!, more of the drug the person is suspected of using is found concealed on their person.

PCP intoxication is the coolest! Every muscle is pumped and rigid and the person's pupils are locked at whatever size they were when they smoked it. Usually open, cause people usually don't smoke PCP out in parking lots. And their eyes bounce around kinda like the cookie monster's. They usually can't move real fast, but golly!, once they get ahold of you, you gotta break stuff to get them off!

I would hesistate before jumping with someone who smoked PCP. But it would make great video, so I might anyway....

:ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::ph34r::P:P:P

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I have no problem with people doing drugs or drinking. Everyone has their own lifestyle. However I feel that they should not make a skydive for at least 8-10 hours after their last drink/line/puff/pill etc.

TOT
TOT
www.SkydiveMoncton.com

To my wife: 'If you ask me to stop skydiving, you are asking me to move out!'

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But wouldn't you feel like an asshole if you vocally refused to jump with them, told them why and it turned out they really did have an eye infection?



I guess I'd rather feel like an asshole for refusing to jump with somebody who was high, than feel like an asshole because somebody I care about just got dead, when I might have been able to prevent it.

Personally I would not want to be in the air with somebody I thought was high. That would mean, for me, not on the same jump, and lots of exit separation at the very least. I don't see me being real enthusiastic about jumping with that person under any circumstances after that. Seems like somebody willing to jeopardize their safety by jumping UTI would have other attitude issues too.

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honestly, i agree with craig. i wouldn't jump with someone if they've been drinking, actually maybe a select few (lol) although it's not something i necessarily agree with. stoners on the other hand, it depends. if they do it on a regular basis, then i have no problem (for the most part). if its someone who's inexperienced and gets all loopy and nutty after 1 hit, then i don't think so. hell, high skydivers have been some of the most precise and cautious, and kickass flyers i've seen. call me crazy but ok ;)
as long as you're not an idiot in the air, and i know who i'm going with, its all a personal choice.


_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

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JP, you'd know this

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1) mj has a very strong and distinct smell, one that does not smoke anything can knock off this smell rather easily. even applying vast and copious amounts of cologne is a knock off.
2) amphetimines dialiate the pupils, and cause extreme heightned heart rates, and profuse sweating, not to mention slurred and hurried speach. i can ask someone three specific questions and figure out the rest for myself



Isn't it the other way around with amphetimines? Don't the pupils constrict?

MJ will cause the pupils to dilate.

Along the discussion lines...

What would you do if you knew someone was going to down a beer on a cross country sunset load?
I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1

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Pupil dilation is just one indicator. MJ is inconsistent regarding pupil dilation.

Uppers generally open up the pupils, meth, benzadrine, dexadrine, the other 'drines, like phentramine (SP)

Downers constrict pupils, Heroin does really neat things to pupils. People with really pale blue eyes look especially cool on a near-death high, cause they look like the blind monk on Kung-Fu (dating myself with that reference) That's heroin, quaaludes, the stuff they give you for go-to-sleep kind of surgery.

Alcohol and marijuana are inconsistent on pupil stuff. That's where you get to toss out super coolio impress the jury stuff like "vertical and horizontal gaze nystagmus". Makes you sound all smart.

People high on Marijuana can usually be found arguing in the cookie aisle of grocery stores really late at night.

"No! Dude! Mallomars!" "NO! Fudge-covered Oreos!":ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

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:SBeer is legal, drugs are not. OTC drugs are legal, but have you ever read the doctors instructions or the manufacturers instructions? Let us start with that. Do you, (I should say they, not directed at you) allow students or up jumpers to skydive intoxicated on beer or any other product such as OTC if you know it? If so, how about telling your DZO and see what he/she believes their liability to be. The big question is why?

If a fatality occurs and an autopsy is done, a toxicology is performed. If you caused the fatality of another and are fount UTI, see ya in court. If you are the fatality and UTI, again I ask why?

Get high, AGL, in an airplane.

Blues,
J.E.
James 4:8

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"People high on Marijuana can usually be found arguing in the cookie aisle of grocery stores really late at night. "

Now that we have established our positions on this issue, I think some humor was in order. That's funny.
I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

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If someone suspected you, would you be OK with being grounded?



I'm an odd girl, prone to spaced-out periods. I've had people ask me if I'm high, and I don't smoke pot.

I would be highly irritated to be cut from a load, or worse, branded a drug user, when I haven't been using.

If I saw someone with a joint in his hand during the jump day, I'd avoid him or her. That's it. Of course, I wouldn't jump with someone I got a bad vibe off of, no matter if I saw him or her drinking or smoking or not.
Skydiving is for cool people only

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