nacmacfeegle 0 #26 March 24, 2003 "I'm not real sure I could have landed my reserve where I landed my main, simply due to not knowing how it flies." Would you have had any choice in the matter? From the sound of it you were 'hoisted by your own petard'.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #27 March 24, 2003 The other kicker, though, is if I would have cutaway when I should have, I would have been under a reserve higher then I was under my main when I finally got it flying right. I might have been able to make it to the field about 200 yards behind where I was (although that would have been a crap shoot, due to a creek with a lot of trees and a ton of powerlines (its an industrial park)). And no, I probably really wouldn't have had any choice in the matter!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grasshopper 0 #28 March 24, 2003 Quote People must recognize that line twists that spin must be cutaway because you are not guaranteed that you will be able to get out of them. come on, with technique and altitude awareness, you should save it. if you don't have both, pray you are lucky enough to tell your story. reserves aren't guaranteed either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #29 March 24, 2003 Quotecome on, with technique and altitude awareness, you should save it. if you don't have both, pray you are lucky enough to tell your story Get real...If it goes, and if you have had one go on you you know what I am talking about, get rid of it. You can fight it...at what cost? Being to low? In a bad place? Now you are screwed... Ask my opinion, If it puts you on your back....Get rid of the damn thing pronto. You have to much to lose trying to save it. Very few times have I ever gotten out of spinning twists....Like maybe twice. But make your own choices....I will tell you that if it is spun up, and starts to spin....get rid of it. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyingferret 0 #30 March 24, 2003 First off Dave and I already talked about this last night...but once again, glad you are okay. I think all the points raised are good ones, and ones that Dave had already contemplated last night when I talked with him. Here are a few sidebars, that were stirred up by what Nac said: This weekend as I was wondering around the DZ looking at pics, I kinda struck me in a 'non-academic' way how much more dangerous freeflying is than belly (bigway excluded). So I was thinking...man that seems so simple these days; no drastic corking, no high speed premies, etc. Then later that day as I was enjoying my Sabre2 demo, I was perplexed by some of it opening characteristics, ie diving for no reason after opening. One time it dove so bad, I just really yanked the brakes unstowed and flared it out. So I was contrasting this with my old square Sabre. Then David mentions this and Nac talks about raising deployment and decision altitudes. And I tend to agree. Sadly, the USPA guidelines tend to follow the sport, not lead it. Thankfully, we are a self governing group. But think about this: 30 years ago, the equipment could kill you, you had to be pretty alert all the time. Then we gravitated to an nice point with conservative proven squares and really recreational skydiving was pretty easy. Now the pendulum is swinging back. We want to be able to headdown at 180mph, shoot camera, throw out an elliptical, and swoop the grass on fire all in one jump. Is it too much? I am not saying it is or it isn't, but just throughing it out for thought. Freeflying is already raising the breakoff and deployment sequences significantly because of the speeds. Now we have canopoies that can obliterate 1000 feet on a hard spiral. Perhaps we need to shift the bottom end of the jump up, even if that means not doing everything in one dive? Those guys flying recreational 4-ways and landing Spectres have a lot more reason to have an open container at 2000, than we do. Anyway, just my thoughts, not chastizing, I think discussions like this make us all better jumpers.-- All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grasshopper 0 #31 March 24, 2003 Quotecome on, with technique and altitude awareness, you should save it. if you don't have both, pray you are lucky enough to tell your story Quote Very few times have I ever gotten out of spinning twists....Like maybe twice. like I said, with both technique and altitude awareness. I have gotten out of being on my back with a velocity loaded almost 2.0:1 a couple times in the past 6 months. it can be done, but it takes more than just kicking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #32 March 24, 2003 Quotecome on, with technique and altitude awareness, you should save it. if you don't have both, pray you are lucky enough to tell your story. reserves aren't guaranteed either. You are correct. Reserves are not guaranteed either. However, I have seen the first hand results of riding a spinning mal with a low cutaway. Which is easier? Teach people in an adrenaline rush moment to do something perfect that may come out before they hit the ground? Or teach them to do something they learned in the FJC which is to get rid of a canopy you can not land at your hard deck? Prayer should have nothing to do with your regular emergency procedures. God gave you a brain. We all should use it by recognizing the limitations of the human mind under stress. We don't think as clearly and something that sounds so simple, such as keeping altitude awareness during a stressful moment, is not as easy in reality. We've all done it. So, "just reach up and even the risers and the line twists will come out" is NOT something I condone during spinning/diving line twist malfunction. A big galoot like AggieDave has the strength to force the situation into getting out of it. I would say that many others (especially many female jumpers) do not have the upper body strength to change the outcome. Our friend at SDC did not have the strength to untwist his lines. He chose to cutaway at 200 feet. He did not survive. Make the decision early. If you are hanging directly under your line twists with no spinning then you have until 2,000 feet to work the problem. After that you need to consider cutting away. If you are in a line twist malfunction that is spinning (whether you are on your back or front) you should not waste time (altitude) trying to get out of it because the effort necessary to get out of it might be more than what you have. The delayed decision to cutaway can then be fatal to you. I stand by my words.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #33 March 24, 2003 Well a Velocity is alot easier to get out of.... Most of mine have been under Stilettos. Once they start to dive...for the most part its over....I would rather tell people to get rid of it...Its a mal...Than tell them to work on it like Dave did. Dave was lucky as hell. He blew right by his "Hard Deck". One more spiral, and the out come most likley would be changed....If he had cut it as soon as it dove....Guess what? Barring a Reserve Mal, we could give him a much better chance of success. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #34 March 24, 2003 QuoteCutting away at 600 feet (with a gun slinger reserve pull) is better than landing a "I'm gonna die" Mal. Yikes...at 600' I might be tempted to NOT cutaway and just get 2 out for lots of fabric overhead. Hopefully I'll never have to decide at 600', but that's kind of the point of having a hard deck I guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldnewbie 0 #35 March 24, 2003 aggiedave, i would like to thank you for posting your experience here. I would also like to thank the people that replied to your post with some suggestions. As a recent A liscense person, now with 35 jumps, this will help me to make some of my decisions. Some people have been trying to get me to pull lower than i do, but I felt that if i had a mal that I might not be able to make a decision quick enough at the lower altitude. This post and replies have helped me to make my decision. Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #36 March 24, 2003 Glad you're OK. I had an "almost" like this yesterday. I felt the twist above my head after dumping at 3k. As I have had to deal with an actual cutaway like this one before (I learned the Hairy Bob lesson: when it started to break towards the horizon, I chopped, so had choice of landing areas under reserve) in this situation, I thought "oh no, not this again", so I started to look up to assess about pulling the red handle shortly. As I did so, I barely had the chance to look at the twist before it whipped me around and untwisted on the spot. At that point, I grabbed the lower risers and looked around, and no one was very close. I noticed that the thing wanted ot turn right, so I pulled more on the left side to stop the turn and check it out. Turned out the brake had released, so I grabbed both of them and it was fine, still above 2k. I just passed this along, because for the initial opening experience, my mind was where yours was. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #37 March 25, 2003 QuoteMost of mine have been under Stilettos.RonAggie and Ron, thanks for the reminder. Despite having started jumping in 1980 I just entered the ZP world last year and started jumping a Stiletto. The younger guys on the dz have been great at teaching me landing techniques, etc. but, most importantly, have also told me what to do with a spinning line-twisted Stiletto...CHOP IT! I had several episodes of spinning canopy on opening...one of which I rode to 1000' before straightening it out with the toggles. You get low way too fast on these canopies. Aggie - I've used my reserve 5 times when I had to and done 3 intentional cutaways...I have great faith in the riggers I use and in the reserve itself. Don't be afraid to pull the silver handle. Perhaps you could arrange to do an intentional cutaway when you have the PD demo reserve and fully round out your education.Thanks for sharing,-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #38 March 25, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- c. You should decide upon and take the appropriate actions by a predetermined altitude: (1) Students and A-license holders: 2,500 feet. (2) B-D license holders: 1,800 feet. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why is your decision altitude 300 ft lower than that recommended by the USPA? You know I was actually taught in my 1st jump course that 1500 ft is you final decision altitude. You have to make your decision and cutaway by then. I even remember a guy on student status who had broken lines talking about it around the bonfire that night say, "I saw 1500 ft coming up and decided to chop".Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #39 March 25, 2003 Quote Prayer should have nothing to do with your regular emergency procedures. Uh oh. I been teaching... Look , Grab, Peel/Punch Right , Peel/Punch Left , Arch Have I been doing this wrong? ...Bigun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #40 March 25, 2003 QuoteYou know I was actually taught in my 1st jump course that 1500 ft is you final decision altitude. You have to make your decision and cutaway by then. I even remember a guy on student status who had broken lines talking about it around the bonfire that night say, "I saw 1500 ft coming up and decided to chop". IIRC, my original training was decision by 1800, action by 1600. Both seem reasonable to me. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dave610 0 #41 March 25, 2003 Dave, That is scary just to read. Glad your ok! BTW, I will be coming to Aggieland in then next few weeks, so yall better get ready. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airann 1 #42 March 25, 2003 Dave- I am jumping to basically the end of this thread. You have good advise here, I am sure. Anyway, I just heard about this from my bud in NC. (she is in love with you BTW) I know you did not cutaway, but I did. My cutaway was a mess. (Line over + line twist + horizontal spin) I let it go. I was green as a grasshopper. I had maybe 90 jumps +/-. Still, if I think its not right and its past that messed up point - Buh Bye. Here is what I do, which is a sure sign its wrong, but it works for me. 1) When in doubt - whup it out. You gotta get it repacked anyhow. Use that bad boy. 2) If there is a hint of a question about the power lines, I land off. I had the land off record at a certain dz for a time. I would land beside that church all the time. I have done alot of prayin over that church. However, last time I was there I landed off in a 20 acre briar patch. But when faced with a choice I am picking the ant bed field or the briar patch field over 2 sets of power lines and a hwy. No problem!! I would get the snicker, giggle, laugh and wink-wink on occasion. Maybe it is because I did not try hard enough or who cares. I am going to cut away or land off any ole time I think I should. Id rather laugh or be laughed at than (if damn lucky) be sippin on an O2 hose in some ICU. Also, I have been jumping a few years now and I ordinarily pull on the high side for someone with my jumps. I would likely still pull on the high side even if I had a pro license. I am more comfortable that way. But that is just me. I dont miss any of my skydive or freefall time because on a FF jump we break off high anyway. Our little yellow and red buddy never had a cutaway till damn near 1000 jumps. I think he was about 20 shy of 1000. Then he had 2 in 2 weeks time. You will have to ask him. ~AirAnn~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #43 March 25, 2003 Thanks Ann. The powerlines thing happened, it was literally the ONLY spot to land. I went out and took some pics of it today, I'll post them probably tomorrow. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #44 March 25, 2003 Quotelike I said, with both technique and altitude awareness. I have gotten out of being on my back with a velocity loaded almost 2.0:1 a couple times in the past 6 months. it can be done, but it takes more than just kicking. Yeah, and I remember when you first got your Velocity all the experienced jumpers at Skydive Elsinore standing around saying how you were an idiot for buying that Velocity when you weren't doing s**t with your Vengence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #45 March 25, 2003 Damn Dave! Glad you're ok. How would I collect on my 2 jumps if you were not around? Stay safe & have fun, Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #46 March 25, 2003 oops just went back and read this. Quote I would say that many others (especially many female jumpers) do not have the upper body strength to change the outcome I'm not the biggest girl in the world and I have gotten out of spinning line twists 5 or 6 times in the last year by using the even your links method, all it took was a simple harness shift to make it fly strait (of course since I am smaller the odds of me over amping are slimmer), it takes A LOT less strength than pulling down on a front riser or even doing a rear riser turn. Of course this is the biggest reason someone with low jump numbers should not be flying an elliptical, they don't have the understanding of how much altitude is lost in a turn and then end up cutting away at 200 ft. Your example fatality is an example of what I'm talking about. From Parachutist: Number of Jumps: 70 Main: PD Stiletto 135 Wing Loading: ~1.26Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #47 March 25, 2003 Glad you're still with us, Dave . . . live and learn - literally! I acknowledge you for sharing your experience here in the forums so others might learn from it.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #48 March 25, 2003 QuoteYikes...at 600' I might be tempted to NOT cutaway and just get 2 out for lots of fabric overhead. Hopefully I'll never have to decide at 600', but that's kind of the point of having a hard deck I guess. Well I had my cutaway tucked under my harness. It was fine on climb out, but it must have been tucked on exit (8way chunk)...This is one reason I hate soft handles for the reserve...I have had a soft handle tuck under. As it was....I knew I was LOW....I also knew that a reserve would come out in 600 feet. (A CYPRES fires at 750 at TERMINAL). I was going to pull the silver handle at 500 feet no matter what. I didn't want an entanglement, so since I was above my new, just made up hard, deck of 500 feet. I cut away.....By the way I had to take off my glove to find the handle...And I landed with both handles...and the glove. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
covey 0 #49 March 25, 2003 Scary story Dave!!! Glad you are still around to tell it!!! Thanks for sharing the knowledge with us. Believe those who are seeking truth. Doubt those who find it. -Andre Gide Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #50 March 25, 2003 Quote Quote Prayer should have nothing to do with your regular emergency procedures. Uh oh. I been teaching... Look , Grab, Peel/Punch Right , Peel/Punch Left , Arch Have I been doing this wrong? ...Bigun No, that B just fine.....LOL..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
