Keith 0 #51 April 24, 2003 QuoteThe sad part is i overheard him giving advice to another newbie. Did you tell the newbie that "swoop" was bounce bait and not someone to take advice from?Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #52 April 24, 2003 Isn't there some crafty way a dealer could convince PD to stick a "Stiletto 97" label on say a spectre 150 and sell that to him?I mean really, he probably would never know.Ken "Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,620 #53 April 24, 2003 Quote Has anyone explained to him exactly what a Sabre150 let alone Stilletto 97/107 will do to him the very moment he makes a mistake low to the ground . Ummm - a Sabre 150 WAS my student canopy.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #54 April 25, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wants a Stiletto 107 or 97. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shame PD doesnt make them any smaller..... The do, 89 Stiletto. ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eddytheeagle 0 #55 April 25, 2003 I'd say, regulation need not always be a bad thing. In the dutch regulations, there's a simple rule that the jump/gear need to be in accordance with your experience level. Using this rule along, an instructor can ground somebody (recently, they added new regulations, restricting both wingloading & type of canopies based on jumpnumbers). Now the problem is of course that if you're told you can't a certain canopy, there's always another DZ around. I guess it's at least partly the DZs responsibility to prevent these kind of people from killing themselves. If they don't, rules will be enforced upon us. However, I'm afraid that if people really want to do this, they'll find a way, at least for one, or a couple of jumps...Don't underestimate your ability to screw up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
canopywhore 0 #56 April 25, 2003 I won't sit here and say I would never jump something too small, but on the other hand give this guy my number. I will be more than glad to share my experience with my femur. I can tell him all about the procedure, the hospital stay, and how I needed help to the bathroom for almost 2 weeks. Maybe you should ask him if he can afford the time off work. I ended up using 12 weeks of sick leave. I'll also admit that nobody could have talked me out of what I was doing. Nice job of standing your ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #57 April 25, 2003 Maybe you should write it up and post it here... And if we could get everyone to write up the "oh shit, did I F'up stories" And we could get these hotshots to read them....Maybe they will see that they are no different than the rest of us that have screwed up. Thats the problem...I have seen "hotshots" watch someone hit hard, and say "what an idiot!" I ask them if they think that will ever happen to them...They say "No, that guy was stupid, and didn't know what he was doing. I'm not gonna screw up like that!"....I have seen WAY to many of them hit just like that...The real hard headed ones start blaming traffic, turbulance, wind shear, canopy...ect. Basicly it was never THEM who screwed up.... Oh well. They will learn, or they will die."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #58 April 25, 2003 Well I screwed up under a 175. If I still had them, I'd post x-rays, suffice to say a moments madness cost me 2 yrs grounding. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #59 April 25, 2003 Quote Maybe you should write it up and post it here... And if we could get everyone to write up the "oh shit, did I F'up stories" And we could get these hotshots to read them....Maybe they will see that they are no different than the rest of us that have screwed up. Thats the problem...I have seen "hotshots" watch someone hit hard, and say "what an idiot!" I ask them if they think that will ever happen to them...They say "No, that guy was stupid, and didn't know what he was doing. I'm not gonna screw up like that!"....I have seen WAY to many of them hit just like that...The real hard headed ones start blaming traffic, turbulance, wind shear, canopy...ect. Basicly it was never THEM who screwed up.... Oh well. They will learn, or they will die. *** Do the terms; "Natural Selection"...."Thinning the Herd" Have any place in this thread??! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #60 April 25, 2003 a mistake landing a big canopy that might get you a bruise***I unfortunately witnessed a recently quaified/consolidation jumper break his collar bone/shoulder whilst 'piloting'a large docile student canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #61 April 25, 2003 uh...huh..huh...This guy really like doesnt get it or something. I fly a Xaos 78 but thats just it u gotta fly it..So I think he's upside down on Canopy stuff.. Ya...done the right thing...we dont need no stinking people dying because lack of experience..on high performance canopys... The glass is half full or half empty doesn't matter. Let go and have the Lord guide your path. He will take care of it all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #62 April 25, 2003 QuoteI unfortunately witnessed a recently quaified/consolidation jumper break his collar bone/shoulder whilst 'piloting'a large docile student canopy. Nothing personal, but I am getting a little sick of this argument. Yes you can still get hurt under a big canopy, there is no doubt about that. However, the smaller your parachute, the higher your chance of getting seriously hurt when a mistake is made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #63 April 25, 2003 Quotea mistake landing a big canopy that might get you a bruise Quote I unfortunately witnessed a recently quaified/consolidation jumper break his collar bone/shoulder whilst 'piloting'a large docile student canopy Imagine the damage if it had been a high wingloaded canopy? Students/New jumpers should not be allowed to jump what ever they want. We don't let people deloy at any altitude they want. We have rules to try and keep people from opening at any altitude they want. Why? Becasue it was decided that low pulls were killing too many people. Now its high wingloads and "hot" canopies. Other organizations have regulations about canopy size....Its about time WE start looking at it. When the USPA or FAA does finally step in it will be with a heavy hand. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #64 April 25, 2003 That brings up an interesting question. You see this guy at the DZ with his new hanky (which he got from somewhere else) headed out for the plane. Everyone that has talked to him about it has been ignored and he's determined to jump it. Question: Do you pull his handle while he's on the ground? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #65 April 25, 2003 QuoteNow the problem is of course that if you're told you can't a certain canopy, there's always another DZ around. I guess it's at least partly the DZs responsibility to prevent these kind of people from killing themselves. Here's where I have to disagree. The jumper is the person ultimately responsible for themselves, not the DZ. Does the DZ have to let them jump? Of course not, but I would not consider them responsible at all if someone screws themselves into the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #66 April 25, 2003 A redneck's last words - "Hey, watch this..." The second redneck's last words - "Nah, he just didn't do it right..." Two weekends ago, I watched someone go to swoop the pond and splash in. Lesson learned? Nope, the next day, faster approach and Splash! once again. Later that day, a guy with over 3000 jumps who works on the dz and jumps every day... hit with his knees and chest on the pond, bounced up, and landed ok. Pure luck. Don't know if you saw those landings. People don't learn from others mistakes. Most don't seem to learn from their own mistakes either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #67 April 25, 2003 Some do learn....Others must be forced to comply. Regulations are comming. People will be pissed off. But the ones the most pissed off are most likley the ones that will benefit the most from the regulations. Ron PS. I didn't see the splashes...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #68 April 25, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wants a Stiletto 107 or 97. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shame PD doesnt make them any smaller..... they do, they make a 89. maybe he should get that one j/k. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamsville 0 #69 April 25, 2003 I am inclined to agree that regulation may be coming if we have many more accidents that attract attention. If it happens, I don't know how those regulations will factor in experience. Where I jump, there are a number of excellent canopy pilots whose swoops and landings are a beauty to watch because they have practiced extensively (at least well enough that they're still sound enough to do it). While I would agree that saving lives and serious injuries is more important, I'd hate to see those who have worked hard to really learn to pilot their canopies well suffer. For some, the swoop is the favorite part of the sport. |I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane. Harry, FB #4143 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trigger 0 #70 April 25, 2003 Nothing personal, but I am getting a little sick of this argument.***No argument!Fact! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #71 April 25, 2003 The only fact this brings to the discussion is that a student can get an injury even if jumping a big canopy. Heck, they can even get killed, so can you and I. Don’t forget that little tidbit of info…. But flying a highly loaded canopy, regardless of your experience, increases the risks you have of getting hurt, and increases the chances of a small mishap turning into a severely dangerous, and even deadly situation. Yes, training can help reduce this risk, but the same training will also reduce the lower level risk you or I have when jumping a larger, less loaded canopy.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #72 April 25, 2003 QuoteWhile I would agree that saving lives and serious injuries is more important, I'd hate to see those who have worked hard to really learn to pilot their canopies well suffer. For some, the swoop is the favorite part of the sport. One does not have to preclude the other. I can swoop a Stiletto 150, a Velocity 90, or a Spector 120. Just as I can die under any of these canopies. The problem is that as wingload increases so does the risk factor. I am all for a guy jumping a tiny little canopy...If he has shown the skills to handle it. I would like to see a base line established....I like Brian Germains Jump # to wingload chart: 100 jumps 1.1 max wingload 200 jumps 1.2 max 300 jumps 1.3 max... This would allow people to continue to get smaller canopies, but would limit situations just like this one that started this thread. You want a 1.8 loaded canopy?...no problem, just wait till you have 800 jumps. No matter what some people might think, lower wingloads are safer. This would prevent 100 jump wonders from killing themselves before they realize the dangers are real..and can affect them. I understand that with training a faster progression COULD happen....but I don't care. Experience is a much larger part of the learning process than just knowledge. Ron"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #73 April 25, 2003 > If it happens, I don't know how those regulations will factor in experience. My prediction - very few will. Why? Because if they _do_ factor in experience, then every single jumper will fight with the DZO/S+TA. "I have a lot of experience under this canopy! I'm a naturally fast learner, ask anyone." Most DZO's won't want to deal with this, and a blanket rule with no exceptions will lead to fewer fights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #74 April 25, 2003 That is a bruise compared to a broken femur, crushed pelvis, and an eye popping out of you head. Yes, I have seen all these on one bad hook.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #75 April 25, 2003 Quote That brings up an interesting question. You see this guy at the DZ with his new hanky (which he got from somewhere else) headed out for the plane. Everyone that has talked to him about it has been ignored and he's determined to jump it. Question: Do you pull his handle while he's on the ground? I would. If it was someone from my dz that i knew couldn't handle this hanky. But then again i'm an asshole like that Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
