Re: [Alambic] CYPRES Save!

[billvon 2,396]

>Newbies with almost no skills survive their first skydive.

A newbie with no assistance (i.e. relying only on his limited judgement) would likely be injured or killed on his first jump. That's why we substitute the judgement of a skilled instructor for his, and back up the student with every safety gadget commonly available from RSL's and AAD's to radios.

>The most skilled skydiver wont survive a jump without his gear.

A trivial thing to say. A pilot won't survive a landing without his airplane; a poor reason to not practice engine-out landings.

[kallend 1,623]

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>Newbies with almost no skills survive their first skydive.

A newbie with no assistance (i.e. relying only on his limited judgement) would likely be injured or killed on his first jump. That's why we substitute the judgement of a skilled instructor for his, and back up the student with every safety gadget commonly available from RSL's and AAD's to radios.

>The most skilled skydiver wont survive a jump without his gear.

A trivial thing to say. A pilot won't survive a landing without his airplane; a poor reason to not practice engine-out landings.

Trivial maybe but adequate enough to indicate the fallacy in your statement about the ordering of the items that contribute to your survival.
Many unconscious people have survived a skydive with AAD equipped gear. Almost no-one survives with no gear or a double total mal. Your dependence on your gear is practically absolute.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Isn't the definition of an accident something that happens because of events cannot be forseen or accounted for?

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

You don't get the fact that MOST accidents are avoidable by using better judgement.

Don't drive fast in the rain.....If you drive fast and get into an accident...Guess what? It might have been able to be prevented by not driving at your normal speed.

Think about the skydives you are on and locate the ways you could get hurt...

Don't just rely on the neat toy.

But its your life rely on it if you want.

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I feel better know there is something there that has the potential to let me do another jump.

So if you screwed up and didn't do anything...you would just get arepack and a new cutter and get on the plane again right?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ianmdrennan 2]

You don't get the fact that not ALL are avoidable, of course you conveniently forget that.

If you are SO capable of avoiding all these things AND always are going to pull your handles, then I think you wasted $1200 - take it out and give it to someone who wants it.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

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You don't get the fact that not ALL are avoidable, of course you conveniently forget that.

Ok not aLL, but most.

And if you don't use your head to think about the way bad things can happen and avoid them, then more bad things will happen and you will need your CYPRES.

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If you are SO capable of avoiding all these things AND always are going to pull your handles, then I think you wasted $1200 - take it out and give it to someone who wants it.

Who said I didn't want it...Just because you DEPEND on it and RELY on it does not mean I don't WANT one.

But anyway I will continue to think out my dives so I don't need one...And have on incase bad things do happen...You just skydive like you always do and be glad that you have a cool toy that can replace using your brain.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ianmdrennan 2]

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And have on incase bad things do happen...

Odd that's been my point all along. Strange that you suddenly see the benefit in that.

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Just because you DEPEND on it and RELY

Don't ever remember saying that - but you never were too interested in hearing opinions other than your own so I'm not surprised you interpreted my posts any other way.

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You just skydive like you always do and be glad that you have a cool toy that can replace using your brain.

You're even more stupid than you sound if you truely think that's the way I skydive. Of course you can continue to make those judgements, because in light of this debate and your inability to present a rational point (other than device dependance which I agreed was a bad thing), your opinion on issues has certainly lost validity in my eyes.

But of course as you've stated before, you don't care - and quite honestly that's fine by me. I know enough skydivers more knowledgable than you to fill the void.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

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Odd that's been my point all along. Strange that you suddenly see the benefit in that.

I have always thought that way...Maybe a remedial reading class would be good for you?

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Don't ever remember saying that - but you never were too interested in hearing opinions other than your own
so I'm not surprised you interpreted my posts any other way.

Oh I am very interested in others opinions...When they seem to be based on anything other than dependence on a device.

Saftey is an atitude, not just buying a CYPRES.

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You're even more stupid than you sound if you truely think that's the way I skydive. Of course you can continue
to make those judgements, because in light of this debate and your inability to present a rational point (other
than device dependance which I agreed was a bad thing), your opinion on issues has certainly lost validity in my
eyes.

You are the one that can't see the logic in trusting your brain, and knowledge to prevent yourself from being in a situation that will call upon the mighty black box to save your ass.

And even if you don't people do.

Saftey is an atitude, not just buying a CYPRES.

But what would I know?

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But of course as you've stated before, you don't care - and quite honestly that's fine by me. I know enough
skydivers more knowledgable than you to fill the void.

And it is atitudes like yours that made is so I don't care.

I can't make you use your brain, I can't make you learn.

And with that way of thinking you will never be one of the knowledgeable ones.

So please, don't listen to me. You do not listen anyway, why should I care if you don't?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

I agree. You may buy cool toy 4 save your life, but you cannot get another life.....

[ianmdrennan 2]

Seriously, you've become quite a joke. Go back and read, or if you need lessons let me know.

Till then, I can only laugh at you.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

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Seriously, you've become quite a joke. Go back and read, or if you need lessons let me know.

Till then, I can only laugh at you.

Just because you don't agree does not mean you are right.

Try growing up a little.

I find your posts nothing but noise...You seem to think that only your opinion matters.

You and know it alls like you are the very reason I stopped caring if you listen. You know how many know it alls I have seen come and go? Some in body bags.

Funny thing is I get PM's and Emails of support telling me to let the little know it alls have it.

So not everyone finds my posts as a joke.

Your atitude IS a joke however.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Just because you don't agree does not mean you are right.

Never I said I was. Then again, you never considered you may not be either.

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find your posts nothing but noise...You seem to think that only your opinion matters.

That is my exact opinion of you. Interesting how YOU want to FORCE YOUR opinion on cypress users on OTHERS. I don't ever recall belittling someones point of view because they had less jumps than me. Someone's getting too defensive to think clearly.

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You and know it alls like you are the very reason I stopped caring if you listen. You know how many know it alls I have seen come and go? Some in body bags.

I love the way you think I'm a know it all simply because I think having a cypress for unforeseen circumstances is a good idea. You have stated over and over again that you are able to keep yourself out of those circumstances...so I ask again, why is it you have one if you're so good at that?

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Funny thing is I get PM's and Emails of support telling me to let the little know it alls have it.

Me too. Oddly enough your name has come up as a know it all (and troll) when it comes to this topic.
Guess others may have a different view than you.

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So not everyone finds my posts as a joke.

Normally no. As of late, in this topic, yes.

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Your atitude IS a joke however.

My aTTitude? Come on Ron. I use to think you were reasonable. Now you just sound like a child who's been backed into a corner and is lashing out.

This topic has been beaten to death.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[ianmdrennan 2]

PM'ed ya.

Banter put to rest.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 7]

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Never I said I was. Then again, you never considered you may not be either.

No, I could very well be wrong...I don't think so in this case.

How could thinking that people trusting a toy more than themselves be a good thing?

How can knowing that people do more dangerous things with a CYPRES than they would without it NOT be seen as dependent?

And how could people doing more dangerous things since they think a CYPRES will keep them safe be a good thing?

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That is my exact opinion of you. Interesting how YOU want to FORCE YOUR opinion on cypress users on
OTHERS. I don't ever recall belittling someones point of view because they had less jumps than me. Someone's
getting too defensive to think clearly.

Well like I have said ...It's a good thing I don't care what people think of me then huh?

No, I am not gettting defensive...I will say this, If a guy with 3 times my jumps (that would be 9,000 jumps) starts talking to me I at least listen to them. Todays skydivers seem to get 300-400 jumps and stop listening. I really don't get this...

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I love the way you think I'm a know it all simply because I think having a cypress for unforeseen circumstances
is a good idea. You have stated over and over again that you are able to keep yourself out of those
circumstances...so I ask again, why is it you have one if you're so good at that?

No I called you a know it all since you don't listen to someone with more time and jumps than you. I listen to people with more experience than me. You don't seem to want to.

And I have a CYPRES in case shit happens....But I don't do skydives that I think I might need it. Big difference between saying its ok I can do Headdown sinc eI have a CYPRES...

I think todays skydivers are WAY to dependent on all these new toys. AAD's RSL's Pro Tracks....ECT. They all can fail...Stop acting like they can't.

"I went low cause I didn't hear my Pro Track" is a very lame answer.

Read parachutist...there was a Tandem CYPRES fire a few mths ago because the TM thought his RSL would open the reserve...So he didn't pull it till he noticed it didn't open it for him. The CYPRES fired....Sounds like he was dependent on the RSL don't ya think?

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Me too. Oddly enough your name has come up as a know it all (and troll) when it comes to this topic.
Guess others may have a different view than you.

Good thing I don't care huh? And are these guys with 1,000's of jumps and years in the sport or 50 jumps an 3 mths? Either way I still don't care.

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Normally no. As of late, in this topic, yes.

Could it be that I am one of the few that see the problem with people depending on a device and not using their brains and learning how to keep them alive?

Ya think that might be why I feel this way?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jumper03 0]

Okay, now I'm confused. Now to put things in perspective, I'm a low-time jumper that is basically a dummy that just sits around and listens and mostly keep my mouth shut. But I need clarification here.
(and I went back and read all the posts and that sure as heck didn't help).

So my question:
I jump with a cypres so I'm relying on a "toy" to save my life-
You jump with a cypres but you're not relying on a "toy" to save your life-

What's different between you and me?

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Ron 7]

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Okay, now I'm confused. Now to put things in perspective, I'm a low-time jumper that is basically a dummy
that just sits around and listens and mostly keep my mouth shut. But I need clarification here.
(and I went back and read all the posts and that sure as heck didn't help).

You are not a dummy...you are learning. You only become a dummy when you think you know and then don't.

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So my question:
I jump with a cypres so I'm relying on a "toy" to save my life-
You jump with a cypres but you're not relying on a "toy" to save your life-

What's different between you and me?

Its the attitude that we use.

Would you jump that day if your CYPRES did not turn on?

I would.

What would you do if your CYPRES fires?

I'd really have to sort some shit out and see why I fucked up so bad.

I don't think the CYPRES is a needed part of the rig...I also don't need a helmet, altimeter, audible ect to make a jump. In fact I have 300 or so jumps with no AAD or altimeter.

The fact is if you feel you need it or you would not do something you are dependent.

I don't feel I need one. It is a true back up for me. If it is not armed or away for service I still jump.

If you will not then you need to ask yourself why you will not.

Ask yourself this: "Would I do this if I didn't have a CYPRES?" If you say no, but do it anyway, you are trusting it to save you.

If I say no to that question, I don't do that skydive.

See the difference?

Edit to add...I am really done with this. I really don't care what you all do anymore

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Alambic 0]

Ron,

just one thing: every two post you say "I have 3000 jumps, you have less so listen to me"...

I listen to you... but here in France someone decided that you had to wear an AAD... And this guy must have at least 3000 jumps to... so he doesn t agree with you...

Now: I don t have 3000, but I have two persons with 3000 telling me opposite things... what do I do? Listen to both of them, and trust my judgement to see who I agree with...

So please, stop taking your number of jumps as an argument... Less experience than you doesn t mean stupidity, so even someone with fewer jumps, even if doesn t know all can have an opinion... and an open minded attitude is to listen on both side...

That's all I had to say...

Alambic

[Ron 7]

Im done with this...I have become burned out. This place is why I have become burned out.

I am not going to comment for a while...

I really don't care if people listen anymore...so I am going to quit

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,623]

Ron wrote:

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Think about the skydives you are on and locate the ways you could get hurt...

Don't just rely on the neat toy.

But its your life rely on it if you want.

Ron, you are getting very hypocritical.

On Sept 12 you wrote:

"Nope, my whole rig is a TOY...I don't need one if I don't skydive. I don't need to skydive. I do it because I enjoy it. So I enjoy my rig...Its just an important toy."


And on the same date you also wrote:


"Big difference read my posts before you jump in..I have ADMITTED I am dependent on a main reserve and rig... "


So you admit to being dependent on a toy, but chastise others for doing the same.

Who are you to pick and choose which toys people should be dependent on? Isn't this sport about personal responsibility? You draw a line in one place, and you have decided that this is where everyone else should draw the line.

I'll bet that shortly you'll be trying to dictate to people what their wing loadings should be.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Jimbo 0]

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No I called you a know it all since you don't listen to someone with more time and jumps than you. I listen to people with more experience than me. You don't seem to want to.

I think Ron, that you may be confusing listening with agreeing. Something to think about.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jimbo 0]

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Ask yourself this: "Would I do this if I didn't have a CYPRES?" If you say no, but do it anyway, you are trusting it to save you.

On the other side of the coin are those who know that it is unrealistic to think that they can handle absolutely every situation that comes their way and want the added security of an AAD to help them out when they need it the most. These people, in my opinion, are the realistic folks in the group.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[mjosparky 3]

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Okay, now I'm confused. Now to put things in perspective, I'm a low-time jumper that is basically a dummy that just sits around and listens and mostly keep my mouth shut. But I need clarification here.
(and I went back and read all the posts and that sure as heck didn't help).

So my question:
I jump with a cypres so I'm relying on a "toy" to save my life-
You jump with a cypres but you're not relying on a "toy" to save your life-

What's different between you and me?

Jump

Pay no attention to the bantering of some people. Jumping with a cypres, regardless of why, is a smart thing to do. End of story.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[wmw999 2,121]

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Jumping with a cypres, regardless of why, is the smart thing to do. End of story.

I agree with the first part; but it's not commutative. Jumping with a Cypres is smart, but that doesn't mean that jumping without one is necessarily stupid.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,396]

>I jump with a cypres so I'm relying on a "toy" to save my life . . .

Depends on the jumper, not what's in his rig. If a jumper sees an AAD as a backup to his skills, and never needs it (or needs it incredibly rarely) there's no problem there. If a jumper sees an AAD as a device that makes skydiving safe enough for him, one that can save him when he gets on a foolish dive (i.e. a very low time 6-way head down) then there may be a problem. It's the jumper that is the most important part of the equation, not what's in his container.

[mjosparky 3]

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Jumping with a cypres, regardless of why, is the smart thing to do. End of story.

I agree with the first part; but it's not commutative. Jumping with a Cypres is smart, but that doesn't mean that jumping without one is necessarily stupid.

Wendy W.

I stand corrected. Edit to read "a" instead of "the".

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals