0
billvon

Re: [Alambic] CYPRES Save!

Recommended Posts

Quote

That you do not depend on a device to save your own life.



Then don't skydive. Everytime you jump you depend on your harness and container system to function. If you cuttaway you depend upon your three-rings to function, and everytime you deploy your reserve you depend on the spring-loaded pilot chute to have enough force to open the container and extract the reserve.

This is a sport that is completely dependent on gear to allow us go play a second time. Criticising someone for having trust in their gear is ludicrous. If we didn't have trustworthy gear this sport wouldn't exist.

Every time we jump we depend on devices to save our lives.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>What do you learn from a jump without AAD?

That you do not depend on a device to save your own life.



Or that you can hum it low, and still pitch your main without worry of what that little device may or may not be thinking/further DOING potentially at the same time! :);)
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Then don't skydive. Everytime you jump you depend on your harness
> and container system to function.

You are correct in the harness, not the container. The container could fail in the middle of a skydive (i.e. open prematurely) and you'd still have a good chance at survival.

Fortunately the harness is the simplest and most rugged piece of gear most people own. Failures are astronomically rare.

>If you cuttaway you depend upon your three-rings to function . . .

No I don't. I have a hookknife, and I can deploy my reserve into my main if I can't cut a total mal away in time.

>and everytime you deploy your reserve you depend on the spring
>-loaded pilot chute to have enough force to open the container and
> extract the reserve.

That's a backup system to my main; I do not depend on it. I depend on a _combination_ of my main and reserve. This is the key to reliability in a system like this. I maintain my main parachute as if it's my only parachute; then the reserve is truly a backup. If I pack like crap thinking "Hey, I have a reserve" it's not as effective a backup.

>This is a sport that is completely dependent on gear to allow us go
> play a second time.

People who are completely dependent on their gear often don't make it through a whole lot of jumps. All it takes is an altimeter failure to kill them. At least one jumper (mentioned before) died because he was completely dependent on his cypres.

>Criticising someone for having trust in their gear is ludicrous.

Trust is different than dependence. You can trust your altimeter and still jump without it, or still pull if it fails. If you depend upon it you cannot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
;)Bill,

You are arguing from a very weak position. Please do not try to baffle with the bull. We are completely equipment dependent. Try jumping with out it.:S

The argument should be to what extent do we depend upon the equipment to save ourselves from poor performance and decision making process.

Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>We are completely equipment dependent.

If your main failed, would you die? How about your helmet? If it came off your head, would you become a statistic?

We rely on our harnesses not to fail, and that's about it in terms of total reliance. They've shown themselves to be incredibly reliable. We have backups for everything else, which is the way it should be. When we start relying on them they stop being such good backups.

>The argument should be to what extent do we depend upon the
> equipment to save ourselves from poor performance and decision
> making process.

Right, and in what cases does dependence on that equipment have a detrimental impact on our safety.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
;)Bill,

You can "what if" this to death but then you would have to depend upon your computer to do so. Ooops... there goes that "equipment dependency" thing again. Nonsensical arguments.

So, tell me this. What part, specifically, of your equipment do YOU depend upon when you skydive to save your life?

Now remember, please explain in the same format that you argue in.

Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In this sport there are a lot of Security Rules to respect.
The more of this rules you respect, the more chances of survival you have.
There are some rules once or from time to time that can be broken with a fairly good chance of survival (not wearing an helmet, not using an Altimeter, no Audible, no AAD)... And if you can learn something breaking one of this rules in a prepared way, it is worth a try with more caution on the other rules (jumping without altimeter)
You have to respect as much as this rules as you can, because they are complementary.
There is one good reason to break one of these rules: to learn what to do if shit happens (Ho my alti is fucked up, but I am OK I know what to do I did a jump without alti)
Amongst the bad lessons you can learn from breaking a rule there is this one "OK, it worked once, so now I know that I can break it whenever I want, and that will work..." (that is the reasoning of drenaline or billvon)

There is no probs in a few jumps without helmet or cypres... if shit doesn t happen OK, but you never now if shit won t happen on that one jump where you said "Cypres Off? OK, what the hell"

Where I am OK with you, is on fact nobody should say "I respect rule A, so I don t need rule B" because rule B is for some cases, and rule A for others
That is what they do when they say "I have a Cypres, so I can do whatever I want" Yes, but cypres won t save them in some cases
That is what YOU do when you say "I packed well, I respect all the rules, I don t need a Cypres" Yes but there are cases where whatever you did shit happens, and this time the cypres might save you... or not...

The point Bill is that you said before that on a perfect jump you wouldn t need a Cypres... Hell no... on a perfect jumps I would need a reserve either. But in a jump that is not perfect I prefer having a reserve, and an AAD and so on... And no one can tell if a jump will be perfect...
Alambic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Nonsense, you rely on your harness/container and your main/reserve every jump. These are devices also.



Yep, but they are all active.

A reserve ride is proving you can save your own life.


A CYPRES fire is proving you were not able to save your own life...
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A CYPRES fire is proving you were not able to save your own life...



And some people realize that there may come a time when they aren't able to save their own lives, either through fault, or no fault of their own (please remember the thread that started this mess). These same people realize that a CYPRES or other AAD may give them a second chance when the time comes. Is that a bad thing?

-
Jim
"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

And some people realize that there may come a time when they aren't able to save their own lives, either
through fault, or no fault of their own (please remember the thread that started this mess). These same
people realize that a CYPRES or other AAD may give them a second chance when the time comes. Is that a
bad thing?



Ok the thread that started this is a person doing a bad exit... I consider that to be controlable.

And I NEVER said that an AAD is a bad thing...I have said DEPENDENCE on it is...

The all these people say they are not dependent even though they will not jump without one.

Is it so hard to just admit that you are dependent on the damn thing?

I don't depend on my AAD....I will jump without it...

If you will not then you ARE dependent...
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Nonsense, you rely on your harness/container and your
> main/reserve every jump. These are devices also.

I do indeed rely on my harness. It is nearly bulletproof; harness failures are unheard of nowadays unless you forget to put it on. It's the one thing I can't control or mitigate (beyond proper usage and maintenance.)

I don't rely on my container. I can survive a premature container opening.

I don't rely on my main. I can survive a malfunction.

I don't rely on my reserve. I don't need it to save my life.

I do rely on a combination of my common sense, my skills and my gear - in that order. If I were to reverse that order I would be a less safe skydiver.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>

I don't rely on my main. I can survive a malfunction.

I don't rely on my reserve. I don't need it to save my life.



Aren't you able to survive a mal because of your emergency life saving reserve?

Stay safe.

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>Nonsense, you rely on your harness/container and your
> main/reserve every jump. These are devices also.

I do indeed rely on my harness. It is nearly bulletproof; harness failures are unheard of nowadays unless you forget to put it on. It's the one thing I can't control or mitigate (beyond proper usage and maintenance.)

I don't rely on my container. I can survive a premature container opening.

I don't rely on my main. I can survive a malfunction.

I don't rely on my reserve. I don't need it to save my life.

I do rely on a combination of my common sense, my skills and my gear - in that order. If I were to reverse that order I would be a less safe skydiver.



I guess the guy that died in Miami thought his harness was nearly bulletproof too.

I submit that you are wrong. Newbies with almost no skills survive their first skydive. The most skilled skydiver wont survive a jump without his gear.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

And some people realize that there may come a time when they aren't able to save their own lives, either
through fault, or no fault of their own (please remember the thread that started this mess). These same
people realize that a CYPRES or other AAD may give them a second chance when the time comes. Is that a
bad thing?



Ok the thread that started this is a person doing a bad exit... I consider that to be controlable.

And I NEVER said that an AAD is a bad thing...I have said DEPENDENCE on it is...

The all these people say they are not dependent even though they will not jump without one.

Is it so hard to just admit that you are dependent on the damn thing?

I don't depend on my AAD....I will jump without it...

If you will not then you ARE dependent...



If you are not dependent on your gear, then do a jump without it (all of it) and see how you get on.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you are not dependent on your gear, then do a jump without it (all of it) and see how you get on.



Don't be stupid John...

I said I was not dependent on my CYPRES, and I have 700ish jumps without one.

I am dependent on my rig. And I have no problem admitting that I am dependent on my rig.

I am not dependent on my CYPRES....That is the issue not dependence on a rig.

Why is it that people cannot admit dependence to a CYPRES?
I can admit my dependence on a rig.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

If you are not dependent on your gear, then do a jump without it (all of it) and see how you get on.



Don't be stupid John...

I said I was not dependent on my CYPRES, and I have 700ish jumps without one.

I am dependent on my rig. And I have no problem admitting that I am dependent on my rig.

I am not dependent on my CYPRES....That is the issue not dependence on a rig.

Why is it that people cannot admit dependence to a CYPRES?
I can admit my dependence on a rig.



You are dependent on way more than your rig. Go spend a year in the wilderness, taking with you ONLY those things you have personally made or grown.

Your very existence depends on uncountable numbers of things that you cannot do for yourself. Why do you have this big hang-up about the CYPRES?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Your very existence depends on uncountable numbers of things that you cannot do for yourself. Why do
you have this big hang-up about the CYPRES?



I don't have a hang up with the CYPRES, I like them.

I do have an issue with people that think they make them safe and do things that they would not do without them.

The best way to be safe is to use your brains and not put yourself into positions where you could need a CYPRES, not to buy a cool toy and rely on it.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The best way to be safe is to use your brains and not put yourself into positions where you could need a CYPRES, not to buy a cool toy and rely on it.



Isn't the definition of an accident something that happens because of events cannot be forseen or accounted for? If it's saying I'm dependent on the thing, then fine. I don't ever get on the plane thinking - I'm going to do this and if I screw up I got a cypres. However, should I get kicked in the face and knocked out, or hit a bird and become incapacitated, or god forbid get hit a plane, what ever - you don't know - that's why it's an accident, I feel better know there is something there that has the potential to let me do another jump.

Jump
(and won't jump without one)
Scars remind us that the past is real

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0