If a student is accidentally left alone...

[Frodo 0]

Andy's thread about the in-flight student behavior and actions of instructors made me think of this hypothetical situation:
Imagine that you're a student on one of your very first jumps. You're hanging outside of an airplane and give a ready-set-go count... but get freaked out and somehow stay on the plane, while the JM or JMs somehow lose hold of you and separate from the airplane. (Please leave aside the fact that it's very improbable.)
So there you are, hanging outside, alone, maybe terrified and maybe just thrilled, because in addition to the rush of the skydive itself, you're facing a choice:

> jump and pull immediately, or try to stabilize and deploy in 5-10 seconds
> jump and (try to) go through your first solo dive as if everything was normal
> try to climb back into the airplane
> land with the airplane, still hanging outside (yikes!!)
> any other choices?

One more variable to throw into the whole thing, is that if the pilot doesn't notice you're still there, he might start doing his usual crazy stuff with the airplane and you'll probably be forced off the wing into the air, possibly hitting the tail if you're really unlucky.

Again, forget the fact that JM(s) will do everything to avoid losing contact with the student during the exit - just imagine it happened. What would you do?

[PhreeZone 15]

The only time a Student will be outside the plane is on a Cessna. The pilot better not miss a student there. If he does you need to find a new pilot ASAP. If the student starts the count the JM's are usually in places of increased leverage so that they can muscle the student out. For a Student to be left in a plane like an Otter that means the JM has to go completly behind or infront of the student, and have their harness grip broken with out dragging the student off the side of the plane. Instructors don't go on a count, they go on the body motion, once the body moves so far its committed to going, untill that point they are'nt leaving the plane since the student has'nt commited to it yet.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[markbaur 0]

No foolin', there I was...

Flying a 182 on a misty day, the jumpmaster putting out a static line student, nobody else in the airplane. The student slipped on the step as she was making her way to hanging from the strut, and the jumpmaster thought maybe he could help if he just got a little....further....out..... Next thing I knew, he was gone, and the student was hanging from the strut, looking at me. I gave her a thumbs up, "Look up and go!" She did. She was going to anyway: a 45-degree bank is 1.4 g's; 60 degrees is 2 g's; the airplane is rated to 75 degrees of bank, 3.8 g's.

With AFF, it would be nearly impossible for the inside jumpmaster to leave without the student jumping too. And the procedure for being alone in freefall is to pull immediately.

If you're using a 182 or similar, the pilot can't help noticing folks on the outside of the airplane when he tries to close the door.

Mark

[hookitt 0]

>The only time a Student will be outside the plane is on a Cessna

Or a king air with Student center float. That's a very common exit.

I can't answer the previous question, I don't see How I'm going to lose a student right off the step.

Interesting thought...carry on.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Zenister 0]

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>The only time a Student will be outside the plane is on a Cessna

Or a king air with Student center float. That's a very common exit.

dont they also do the same exit from an Otter? i recall being center float on both my 2 JM AFF dives

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[hookitt 0]

Were you completely outside one jump Master front float one rear float an you center, or were you facing the prop with one jumpmaster on the inside of the plane? An otter has a big door so it's easy to leave already facing the relative wind.

On the king air we put one instructor front, one rear and the student center. We are all standing sideways to the relative wind. Then you peel off into the relative wind. Make sense?

Frodo, sorry, I'm not intending to hijack your thread..

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Frodo 0]

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Frodo, sorry, I'm not intending to hijack your thread..

That's fine, since nobody's willing to answer the question itself, anyway

[Zenister 0]

yes completely outside with two JMs both times, same way you describe the king air exit...check left, check right, ready, set, go... & change the way you see the world forever.


on topic..i was taught (for AFF1) if i lost both JMs to wave off and pull immediately.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[falxori 0]

i'd probably wait for some seperation and exit solo.
if i feel comfortable doing that ofcourse...

after all, you are supposed to be able to handle yourself.
especially if we are talking about level 4 and above where you have one JM (which is easier to lose than two...)

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[mattb 0]

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For a Student to be left in a plane like an Otter that means the JM has to go completly behind or infront of the student, and have their harness grip broken with out dragging the student off the side of the plane. Instructors don't go on a count, they go on the body motion, once the body moves so far its committed to going, untill that point they are'nt leaving the plane since the student has'nt commited to it yet.

Not all the time. In the later AFP jumps you will see the instructor on the camera step of an otter and the student giving the count. My wife fooled a very experienced AFP jump master by throwing a little shoulder into ready-set-go and then not jumping for a brief second just to make him think "oh shit". I wasn't behind the plan but it isn't the only time I've seen students who are dating up-jumpers and are close to graduation get "advice" on how to mess with the jumpmaster.

[unclbennie 0]

OK Frodo, this did happen to me during my student progression. I did AFP so its 15 jumps and only one jump master. On one of the jumps the exit is, JM in front, student pretty much leaning on the JM's back, as the JM exits, the student just follows them out. So, in the door, READY SET GO!! Out goes the JM and I'm still standing in the door, I look behind me and a TM leans forward, over his tandem student and screams JUMP GOD DAMMIT!! So I did, (he scared me right out the door). So, there I am at 14,000 feet, no JM, I think, well they tell ya if you lose your JM pull, but there is no way in hell I'm pulling at 14,000, hmm, this is my first solo!! So, at about 5000 feet I see my JM, he must have worked like hell to get big, and I had a pretty good fall rate. I'm still above him, he waves me to come closer and I shook my head no, waved off and pulled :-). Landed with no radio help (I think the JM was pissed at me or something) and stood up the landing. So there is a real life example, I guess I could have pulled at 14000, but it was cold up there. I did fail that level, and when I repeated it, I was the first to exit. Oh, yea, the JM was Roger Nelson.
Karen

[txblondie 0]

To directly answer your question, I think it would depend on the level of AFF I was on...at this point (level 3) I would jump, count to 3 or 4, and pull. However, I've already been told that if I lose my JM's in mid-flight, and I feel comfortable with my position and control, to continue the freefall and pull at 5000.
But straight out of the airplane...I wouldn't like it, but I'd pull because I wouldn't want to piss off any of my instructors. Now, maybe a couple of levels from now, with only one JM, I might try to wait a little while before pulling, partially to get some freefall, but also because who the hell wants to fly a canopy from 13,000 feet or so if they really don't have to?!

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Blondes do have more fun!

[DYEVOUT 0]

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who the hell wants to fly a canopy from 13,000 feet or so if they really don't have to?!

two words.

CReW DAWGZ

----------------=8^)----------------------
"I think that was the wrong tennis court."

[txblondie 0]

CReW DAWGZ

[Michele 1]

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who the hell wants to fly a canopy from 13,000 feet or so if they really don't have to

Me....to have more time under canopy, so I can learn a ton about it. And I'm not a crewdawg...

Pulling high is not bad. It can be cold, but it is not bad. It's the way you begin to learn about how to fly your canopy well...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[txblondie 0]

It's the way you begin to learn about how to fly your canopy well...

Ciels-
Michele

[ladyskydiver 0]

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I guess that's true, but the only issue I have with canopy control is flaring, and that's something I have to work on when I land anyway...I love the feeling of freefalling, so I'm a little iffy on the idea of pulling before I have to!

I've done it and love it. I love freefall as well. I love canopy just as much. I'm actually hoping to have a good weather weekend this weekend so I can pull high and play more under canopy.

Try it once. Play with your canopy. What happens when you play with the front risers, the rear risers? How much altitude do you lose when you use your risers? How do flat turns feel? What happens when you stall your canopy? Where is the stall point on your canopy? How about quick and dramatic turns in opposite directions?

All of the knowledge you can gain from playing under canopy that high can translate well into knowing your canopy when you go to land it.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[txblondie 0]

All of the knowledge you can gain from playing under canopy that high can translate well into knowing your canopy when you go to land it.

[0013 0]

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All of the knowledge you can gain from playing under canopy that high can translate well into knowing your canopy when you go to land it.

you might need it when landing a bit off because of the longer possible travel distance

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www.youtube.com/l0013

[ladyskydiver 0]

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All of the knowledge you can gain from playing under canopy that high can translate well into knowing your canopy when you go to land it.

you might need it when landing a bit off because of the longer possible travel distance

True. I did a hop 'n' pop at Elsinore. I was under canopy at 12,000. It was amazing, and I still landed in the student area. I pay attention to winds aloft, etc. Plus, I had others doing it with me so I was able to watch their flight pattern as well.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[sigsby 0]

Or a twin bonanza.

[Joellercoaster 6]

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who the hell wants to fly a canopy from 13,000 feet or so if they really don't have to?!

These guys
Can't wait to try that!

Regarding the original question, I'm doing my AFF progression out of a Caravan. The main-side JM has always been inside the plane following the student out, so I don't think it could happen.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[Frodo 0]

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who the hell wants to fly a canopy from 13,000 feet or so if they really don't have to?!

These guys
Can't wait to try that!

Thanks coaster for this one - made me smile once again after reading that article Can I do a high hop-n-pop while still a student? The JM doesn't have to be with me during the canopy ride does he?

[Michele 1]

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that's something I have to work on when I land anyway

So why not try to find the exact moment - that split second - where you plane out...but up high, and with all the room to spare? Over and over, find that sweet spot, where you stop "going down" and swing forward like a pendulum (only more gently)...where, if you were only 1 foot off the gound, you would jus step back onto terra firma, with no problems, all forward speed gone? How does it work when you flare fast? Slow? In between? 2-stage flare? If you do these up high, you learn more in a canopy ride than you could ever imagine. And it does translate directly to the flare that counts - the one which lands you on the ground.

Flying a canopy is not just landing. Like Cora said, it's knowing how to get your canopy to do what you ask it to do, and not be a passenger. It's about knowing alti loss for different types of turns...it's about learning the sweet spot. It's about knowing if you do X, Y will happen. You will never know this until you really start practicing it, and you might need it before you have explored your canopy's performance.

If you had a reserve ride, would you wait until you were at the moment of actual landing to find out how it flares? Or would you try to figure out that high enough so that when you came down, you had a better idea than nothing about it's flaring capabilities and flare points?

Also, keep in mind that what you learn at 3K under canopy can save you on final. Some doofus doesn't see you, and carves in front of you. You're about 75-100 feet from the ground; he's all of 12 feet in front of you, and a little bit lower now - and he has the right of way. Would you know how to get away from him? Would you just hope you'll be o.k.? Would you panic-turn yourself into the ground? Or do you have the ability to flat turn 45 degrees, back to full flight, and land safely? It's what you learn up high that translates to your actions near the ground...

The value of getting to know your canopy is simple. It will save your life.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~