Perris landing accident 3 (from Incidents)

[winsor 186]

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Winsor...

Do you know who gave me my first HP class?

You did. WTS I had 150 ish jumps you let me jump your Pro Track.

You sat down with me and DRILLED it into my head that low turns kill...I was getting sick of hearing it.

But I payed attention and in fact your words still ring in my head.

The problem is the guys that don't listen. I just want to make it so that they HAVE to sit with a guy like you...A regulation is the only way to do that.

Ron,

The reason I let you jump a Blue Track with such little experience is because you had been doing CRW with Doug Wolf, who vouched for your attitude under canopy, and that you agreed to follow a very conservative flight plan.

The Blue Track is not fast, but it is responsive as hell, and had a bad reputation for hitting the ground before the jumper in a panic turn. I kept a picture on my wall at work for years, showing Lake Wales with a canopy in the way - burying a toggle in level flight will put the canopy directly below you.

Going from a Raven I to a twitchy elliptical takes some mental planning, and I wanted to be sure you understood that a low-level avoidance turn was potentially much worse than the collision itself.

The problem with the regs you suggest is that they would disqualify me from giving the preflight briefing. I'm not an instructor or a coach or any of that. I've made thousands of jumps over the last thirty years, and Fluid Mechanics is my Mechanical Engineering field of expertise, but someone that knows no more than what is taught in the USPA syllabus and has met the minimum experience requirements would be able to teach what I could not.

I don't charge to teach neophytes how to pack, and I organize low-timers just to give back to the sport. I'm already forbidden to jump with unlicensed jumpers without a mother-may-I from someone who might wish to charge to do so themselves. I fear that canopy regulations would serve to further cut people like me out of the loop.

Even with the proliferation of first-class professional operations, I think that safety can best be promoted by means of community rather than bureaucracy.

Don't assume that I'm too competent for you to give my gear a once-over. If you see something that might be misrouted, tell me! If I do something unsafe, don't be shy - point it out! I may not even realize that I cut someone off or whatever.

I agree that letting safety sort itself out isn't working as well as I would like. Incidents like the one that started this thread are too common for my liking.

I'm leery about rules in general, since they tend to take on a life of their own. I will give some thought to operational tools that we can all use to improve our collective safety - hopefully ones that are enough fun to be worthwhile - and put them forth for comment.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[dreamsville 0]

Winsor,

Although you make good points about regulations and your being allowed to help low-timers, the part about pointing things out to people about what they are doing wrong may have problems. You may be able to accept what people point out to you, but sometimes those who should listen the most (those at risk on account of their behavior) are the ones most likely to blow off the messenger.
|

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Scrumpot 1]

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The problem with the regs you suggest is that they would disqualify me from giving the preflight briefing. I'm not an instructor or a coach or any of that. I've made thousands of jumps over the last thirty years, and Fluid Mechanics is my Mechanical Engineering field of expertise, but someone that knows no more than what is taught in the USPA syllabus and has met the minimum experience requirements would be able to teach what I could not.

I don't charge to teach neophytes how to pack, and I organize low-timers just to give back to the sport. I'm already forbidden to jump with unlicensed jumpers without a mother-may-I from someone who might wish to charge to do so themselves. I fear that canopy regulations would serve to further cut people like me out of the loop.

Absolutely SPOT ON Winsor! ...SPOT ON! But (to quote a line I got in retort on one of my previous post/threads on the subject: See "low time coaches") ---aren't you NOT fulfilling (meeting) your full potential Winsor by not obtaining EVERY rating that would be available to you? ...DOH!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[winsor 186]

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aren't you NOT fulfilling (meeting) your full potential Winsor by not obtaining EVERY rating that would be available to you?

Perhaps I am.

OTOH, I do not aspire to be an instructor. That's a job, and I do not wish to make skydiving work.

If I could just get a rating without a lot of fuss, I suppose I might. Unfortunately, the process is inconvenient as hell and a real pain in the ass. I'm not sure that the hazing involved in getting ratings serves to get the best and the brightest so much as those willing to endure the hazing for whatever reason.

If an evaluator saw fit to participate in a couple of skydives I organized for low timers and treat them as evaluation dives, I might go for that. To try to get me to follow a standardized approach on the basis of someone else's agenda, on my time and with me footing the bill isn't likely to work.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[kallend 1,623]

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aren't you NOT fulfilling (meeting) your full potential Winsor by not obtaining EVERY rating that would be available to you?

Perhaps I am.

OTOH, I do not aspire to be an instructor. That's a job, and I do not wish to make skydiving work.

If I could just get a rating without a lot of fuss, I suppose I might. Unfortunately, the process is inconvenient as hell and a real pain in the ass. I'm not sure that the hazing involved in getting ratings serves to get the best and the brightest so much as those willing to endure the hazing for whatever reason.

If an evaluator saw fit to participate in a couple of skydives I organized for low timers and treat them as evaluation dives, I might go for that. To try to get me to follow a standardized approach on the basis of someone else's agenda, on my time and with me footing the bill isn't likely to work.


Blue skies,

Winsor

I think you are far from alone in viewing it this way.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Tonto 1]

Wow. You know how rare you are? Wish there were more like you.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Scrumpot 1]

I knew there just had to be at least a few kindred spirits out there! ...Finally, they come out of the woodwork!

At least at my home DZ, I am "allowed" (your mother-may-I, I suppose Winsor -I liked that one) some case-by-case "work-arounds". However, the issue that will always seem to creep in though is that if there is a "rated coach" available ...simply because of the fact that they PAID for a course & met some MINUMUM requirements, the DZ/DZO will have an OBLIGATION to go to them 1st (and maybe even be downright INSISTANT). EVEN IF THAT "RATED COACH" CAN BARELY SAVE HIM/HERSELF, let alone become now responsible as well for another. I do empathize with the not interfering with someone's "earned" potential income (or cost recoupment) stream, but do wonder sometimes at what point it remains appropriate to simply step aside in such instances, or rather step UP?

When travelling, and NOT being at your home DZ is when it becomes unfortunately even more difficult. Think about this in the context of the "friend dangerously downsizing" thread going on. I too, have never wanted skydiving to become a job for me. However, if you accept the premise that the more experienced skydivers amogst us have not only just a passing right, but an inherent obligation to impart some of their experience-earned wisdom on the noobs, how then do you appropriately balance this out?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[bmcd308 0]

>> I do not aspire to be an instructor. That's a job, and I do not wish to make skydiving work. <<

Some of the people who taught me RW after student status felt exactly the same way. They were still able to teach me more than I ever could have figured out on my own, and I appreciate every one of those jumps.

Why do I need a rating to get big for 5 seconds then small for 5 seconds so a guy with 15 jumps can learn fall rate control?

I bet that lots of people who think you should have to be a coach to do that with a recent AFF graduate are the same people who want to charge recent AFF graduates $10 and a jump ticket to do that dive. I still remember who the people are who asked me to pay for their jump tickets early on. I did it happily, because I was gald not to be doing solos, but I hardly ever jump with those people now.

The people I jump with now are the ones who wanted me to learn for no reason other than so that they could have fun with me later.

And to the extent that their instructors are cool with it, I am more than willing to lay a base for a low time guy. I fully admit that I do not have as much to teach him as a 4-way team member or someone with hundreds of big ways, and maybe not as much as a guy who has been through the USPA coach program. But they can still learn a few things from me, and if we are both having fun, why is it so bad?

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[peek 20]

Well, while we are on this topic of complimenting Winsor for his great atitude....

Why can't we get him elected to the USPA BOD? Just think about how that could help our organization get out of the commercialized mode that it has been moving toward. (I know _I_ could really use his help at BOD meetings.)

So how many of you voted for him? Did you know him well enough at that time and what he represents? Did you vote at all in the USPA elections?

(These are kind of rhetorical questions, designed to get some discussion going about why you think the USPA BOD consists of so many people that do not really represent you.)

Everyone needs to remember Winsor a year and a half from now! And tell their friends.

[winsor 186]

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When travelling, and NOT being at your home DZ is when it becomes unfortunately even more difficult. Think about this in the context of the "friend dangerously downsizing" thread going on. I too, have never wanted skydiving to become a job for me. However, if you accept the premise that the more experienced skydivers amogst us have not only just a passing right, but an inherent obligation to impart some of their experience-earned wisdom on the noobs, how then do you appropriately balance this out?

Well, for some years now I have been a Load Organizer at the Convention, spending 10 days at a time working with people having less than 200 jumps. Some of our participants have thousands, and are there just to have fun without pressure.

I get around enough that I'm pretty much a known quantity, and have been asked at different times to jump with neophytes and keep them out of trouble by DZOs and S&TAs in Wisconsin, Puerto Rico, Vermont, New Jersey, Georgia, Alabama, Maryland, Illinois, Indiana, New York, Germany, Virginia, Florida and Tennessee off the top of my head. I don't think I am shirking my responsibility by much.

The thing that rankles me is that I am no longer deemed qualified to do so, and that someone who has blown a weekend and paid the fees is - regardless of our relative experience levels.

I was certified to SCUBA dive in 1968, but had to get recertified in toto after my wallet was lifted some time back (the original certifying agency no longer existed). In order to justify charging me the full price, I had to sit through a prepackaged course assembled by people with a much weaker background than I have, and I found it galling.

My gut reaction is that there is a conflict of interest issue at work, and it offends me that securing fiefdoms could take precedence over safety. Maybe I'm a cynic, but in an environment where people can charge to teach freefall skills but can't make a living teaching parachute flying skills you have people who can freefly and turn points with the best of them but can't fly their parachutes to save their lives - literally. There appears to be a correlation here.

I don't care one way or another if someone can turn all kinds of points if they jump with me. I do want them to stay heads-up, maintain good eye contact, break at a proper altitude, track properly, deploy with plenty of room and altitude and land their parachute safely. The rest is just details, and there are professional instructors to teach them.

By retaining amateur status, I can have jumpers on my loads whose goal is to have fun and keep it safe. Such people as wish to push the envelope go elsewhere.

If I get the ratings, I am accepting a professional responsibility to convey the fundamentals, and it becomes a job. I have had better luck with people who accept responsibility for themselves, and pay attention to information that can keep them alive and in one piece.

I may break down and get a Coach rating, but the very idea annoys the hell out of me.


Blue skies,

Wisnor

[Scrumpot 1]

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I get around enough that I'm pretty much a known quantity, ...

Guess I'm just not quite the famous skydiver as you are, ...yet.

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I may break down and get a Coach rating, ...

That's what I was getting at, and although I have been pressured, coaxed & lobbied (quite heavily at times) I have thus far, RESISTED.

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but the very idea annoys the hell out of me.

Yup. Same here. I've just been trying lately to put a handle on that and to maybe even understand (myself) why. Is it just because I am "anti-establishment"? I dunno. 'Cause I'm not (entirely). I had thought we ALL were to a certain extent at one time just by the nature of being skydivers in the 1st place.

Thanks for the candid answers Winsor. You've definitely given me some food for thought/consideration.

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[mustard 0]

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The thing that rankles me is that I am no longer deemed qualified to do so, and that someone who has blown a weekend and paid the fees is - regardless of our relative experience levels.

Not true! If you were jumping at my DZ, Winsor, you would be assigned to coach status, simply because of your vast experience. Remember, the S&TA can waive the coach requirement for non-licensed skydivers, and the people you jump with most of the time already have their A license, so it's a moot point.

Now, speaking of the WFFC, when are you arriving? Can't wait to see your smiling face again! Not to mention listening to your latest dissertations...

***
DJan

[Tonto 1]

Well I agree with you. Vote in the people who are there for the sport and not for the money. There are many ways to make money - but only one sport!

I can't vote though - not being a USPA member and living in Africa has its problems..
t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 7]

Thanks Winsor,

Your input would be more than welcome by me.

And thanks for drilling canopy flight into my head.

You are the reason that I look out for low timers, while trying to help them advance. I don't want them to be held back, I just want the to advance safley, and with the knowledge needed to make it.

I am not in favor of just a class...I would like a performance test that they have to pass. If they can pass it...Then they should be allowed to downsize...And if they are really ready to downsize, then the test should not be an issue.

I fear that regulation is the only way to make people seek the knowledge..The classes are there, but the ones that are at risk of getting killed trying to hook...Are not taking them.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[bertthebaron 0]

Hmmm? I started skydiving in the mid 80's. All this stuff about smaller and smaller canopies and HOOK turns before landing is crazy man. Look at it this way, lets increase the wing loading of our jump aircraft for a change. As the pilots become more experienced the wings become smaller and smaller! Before long we will be loading into a rocket ship with a giant engine and little fins for wings. Don't worry about the pilot, he can land it safely, after all he has so much experience with this new trend and landing his dart. All he has to do is flare at exactly the right instant and all will be fine. But we don't want to add weight to his intense take-off so we will continue to reduce the size of our 'backpacks' and canopies (reserves included!) until we too are approaching at higher velocities. Hell, lets be 'cool' and take it a step further. Let's just wear roller blades and a wing suit! If you time it out just right you can flare and have a nice two point landing right down the runway and come rolling straight into the hanger, no prob! Oh, be sure and watch for air trffic with the few seconds that you can devote for that kind of thing cuz that rocket ship will be landing soon to pick up another load of the like minded! So, fly as fast as you can, swoop as fast as you can, land as fast as you can and be as safe as you have time to be. And don't forget to bait that HOOK, the ground is always hungry! COOL man, ya, way cool!

[bertthebaron 0]

I don't mean to be a smart ass, but it seems that this is a mind-set issue. There must be some limit to this madness. In nature, an eagle is given a set of wings proportionate to his body. A big man jumping a little skinny canopy just doesn't seem natural. There is also a limit as to how fast a human brain can think, no matter how much exposure to a particular environment it has had. Reduce the thinking time and increase the risk of the subject and all who are around him/her. I have been cut off by an experienced jumper before. He didn't see me when he hooked under me, the wake of his canopy deflated about half of mine and I came down hard and suffered a compressed disc in my back. I weighed 150 and the canopy was a Clipper 194sq.ft. If it had been any smaller I would really have busted my ass. It was an accident and I didn't put blame on the guy but he reduced his thinking time by performing a hook, he had a fast canopy as well. I just wonder if small, fast canopies and reduced thinking time have anything in common? Or, has a person with a demonsrated extreme ability level overcome the thinking time deficit by merit of experience? Maybe I'm totally off the mark here but it seems that experienced skydivers like to jump smaller, high performance rigs and the up-n-comers want to be like them so they downsize. Is this a mind-set issue or just a waiver?

[billvon 2,396]

>Look at it this way, lets increase the wing loading of our jump aircraft
>for a change. As the pilots become more experienced the wings
> become smaller and smaller!

And that's exactly what has happened on aircraft people fly for fun. Go to any airshow; see what people are building as homebuilts. Do a search on the Bede-5J. Are they more dangerous? You bet. But people still fly them, because they're fun.

>Hell, lets be 'cool' and take it a step further. Let's just wear roller
>blades and a wing suit!

That will happen eventually. The first 400-way, the first 100 way hybrid, the first 10-way wingsuit jump with a Porter in the lead. All just because they're cool to do. If we didn't do things we thought were cool we wouldn't have the 300 way, elliptical canopies, skysurfing, wingsuits, even RW or CRW. Heck, if we didn't do risky things because they were fun we wouldn't jump at all.

[skybytch 259]

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Hmmm? I started skydiving in the mid 80's. All this stuff about smaller and smaller canopies and HOOK turns before landing is crazy man.

The sport has grown and changed a lot in the past 20 years. Today more jumpers want to do high performance ("swoop"; hook turn, etc) landings - why not, when the canopies of today are capable of doing so much more than the canopies of 1990 were, and a well executed swoop landing is not only impressive to watch, but from what I've heard it's also a shit load of fun to do.

As long as a jumper understands the extra risk they are taking by performing high performance approaches and landings, and as long as those wanting to start doing them seek out qualified instruction and coaching in the techniques required to do those appoaches and landings relatively safely... I see swooping as a big step forward for our sport. Swooping is certainly the most spectator friendly of anything we do in the sky.

What many of us think is needed is not to ban "hook turns" - what's needed is quality canopy control education that includes advice on learning to swoop under conservative wingloadings. That education needs to be available to every jumper (whether they want to swoop or not).

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Let's just wear roller blades and a wing suit! If you time it out just right you can flare and have a nice two point landing right down the runway and come rolling straight into the hanger

Don't laugh. Someone will land a wingsuit without a parachute some day in the future.

[winsor 186]

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Don't laugh. Someone will land a wingsuit without a parachute some day in the future.

It's been done. Now we're just trying to work out the details of surviving the experience.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[bertthebaron 0]

I have to admit that I'm guilty of the same thing I question. I use to hook a downwind and start flaring while nearly horizontal,swooping in and sliding my bare feet through the wet grass only to gain a few feet in altitude afterward and float to a soft landing to my amazement back in '86. I know that skydiving will continue to evolve and nothing can stop it. I remember the feeling of utopial bliss and of utmost respect for the sky. Nothing else like it! It just hurts when close friends and mentors are snatched away in an instant, before you had a chance to say hello once again. Then you read the why's and what if's in a forum. I've been out of the sport for 5 years, it always tries to draw me back in and it probably will someday. I can see I will have plenty to learn and maybe something to offer. Blue Skies All.......FB2340

[billvon 2,396]

>It's been done. Now we're just trying to work out the details of
>surviving the experience.

He did survive, just with more broken bones than most would prefer.

[JDBoston 0]

Eh? Who & when was this?

Joe

[Ron 7]

All this brings an important question to my mind...

How the hell are you? Its been years.

By chance do you have any plans to be in FL or GA? in the near future? I would love to catch up with you.

Mike told me he was thinking of doing another Boogie till ya puke, but so far I have not heard anything.

And I am trying to get Doug to vist me in FL..He lost both of his rigs, and ALL of his stuff in a fire a year ago and has not jumped since.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334