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skygirl1

freefliers out first??

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John...I AKSED for english, and you give me 5 x 10^-36 ....

Thanks a lot, I don't take my math class until Oct....Now I'll have to wait 8 mths to know what the hell this means.


It means the number -5 with more zeros behind it than there are broken rubber bands on every DZ the world over combined.
Edited to ad "-" before the "5"!
Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

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wow...........i am really getting alot of info here...i guess it is ultimately up to the dropzone and then your personal choice to jump or not........I just know exiting first as a freeflier before students really rubbed him wrong......and I was wondering why.....a lot of good info to take in.........

skygirl1

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Exiting before a student should not be an issue. I agree with everyone that belly should go before freeflyers, but students opening 2000 feet higher than the rest of the load need to be last. No chance of a collision if you are never at the same altitude.

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It means the number 5 with more zeros behind it than there are broken rubber bands on every DZ the world over combined.

Stay safe,
Mike



then that would be alot...Stick around...I might need you in 8 mths.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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So where do you throw in solo students (aff completed) to this mix. . .does it depend on whether they are belly flying (me) or trying to do a little freeflying. . .or does it depend on pull altitude. . .



Well, first of all we do not recommend that you freefly in student gear for several reasons. Some have been made obvious in the last week or so. Now that you are a soloist, discuss the exit order with the other student solos; based on pull altitude. B|

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> i just have a hard time in understanding why if two groups are
> opening at the same time (flat out first and then free) there is less
> danger than with free flyers opening 20 seconds before hand.

When they open really isn't an issue. At Rantoul, often there will be three groups on three separate jump runs opening at the same time. As long as there is horizontal separation, there will be no collisions.

The problem is that freeflyers don't drift as much as belly people. This means that effectively you get more separation if the belly flyers go out first (assuming jump run into the wind, wind stronger at exit altitude, which is usually the case.) So you can be opening over someone who opened 20 seconds earlier, or you can be opening at the same time as someone who is 1000 feet away. One is survivable if you have a long snivel or mal, one isn't. It was Bryan Burke who first noticed that vertical separation simply doesn't work.

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Actually it's a 5 with a lot of zeroes in front of it, a number that we in the technical trades call very, very small.


Bill, I caught that and edited. I wish my bank would make the same error!

Stay safe,
Mike

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

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......or running jump run cross wind. Whats the math on that? I think we've done the FF out first for a long time and work with our pilots to make things are safe for every load, that we can predict the winds to be. If its not broken why fix it. I will admit we do get out last if the winds are strong from a cold front sending high upper winds, but that only happens on the weekends...:S

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different theories...
a friend also got asked to exit after the groups as he was solo, but he was doing speedskydiving [:/]
where I jump the fastest jump 1st... but I can still adapt to local beliefs and customs :P



Belief has no impact on Physics.

"The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. That is, however, the way to bet."

If you go against the odds, you are counting a little too much on luck for my liking. Arranging exit order so as to increase the likelihood of a collision is a very bad plan indeed.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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Check this link out and download the program. http://skyjuggler.com/drift/tech_details.html

Nice little program I found on the web, it's not mine so I deserve zero credit. It's a freefall simulator. Input some information and bang the program displays a simulated freefall using the information you provide. You might also want to give it to your BF he might get a kick out of it.

It definitely opened my eyes as far as the exit progression goes. I would also imagine this would be good for you because you are a student, and anything that can "bring to life" what you are being taught is a good thing.

There's more info on how to use the program on the web. Of course some exceptions are out there. Hit up Google and look for "freefall simulator".



Unfortunately, if you don't have the Hypercosm driver you can no longer use Juggler's sim. From that site:

"This program simulates the most likely trajectories of groups of skydivers in freefall with different fall rates, given the fall rates, airplane speed, and winds. It requires the Hypercosm 3D Player, which is unfortunately no longer available (Hypercosm is out of business). If you don't already have it, you are out of luck. Go to John Kallend's version."
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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So where do you throw in solo students (aff completed) to this mix. . .does it depend on whether they are belly flying (me) or trying to do a little freeflying. . .or does it depend on pull altitude. . .



Well, first of all we do not recommend that you freefly in student gear for several reasons. Some have been made obvious in the last week or so. Now that you are a soloist, discuss the exit order with the other student solos; based on pull altitude. B|



depends on the drop zone...

our drop zone student gear is perfectly safe to freefly in.....

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different theories...
a friend also got asked to exit after the groups as he was solo, but he was doing speedskydiving [:/]
where I jump the fastest jump 1st... but I can still adapt to local beliefs and customs :P



Belief has no impact on Physics.

"The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. That is, however, the way to bet."

If you go against the odds, you are counting a little too much on luck for my liking. Arranging exit order so as to increase the likelihood of a collision is a very bad plan indeed.


Blue skies,

Winsor



yes it is.... very very bad plan


as for flying jump run cross wind.... well i would still like the same exit order.......

why would you fly jumprun crosswind?.... im sure there is reasons to.. but you would think this would make it more difficult for the pilot to spot useing gps.... then again... you should be spotting for yourself...

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why would you fly jumprun crosswind?.... im sure there is reasons to.. but you would think this would make it more difficult for the pilot to spot useing gps.... then again... you should be spotting for yourself...



We would fly cross-wind often at pahokee. Rule of thumb was north/south or south/north jumpruns. East/West jumpruns would have put us out over the water "cross wind" better idea!
One Word "Alligators" hee-hee ;)

Tami

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why would you fly jumprun crosswind?.... im sure there is reasons to.. but you would think this would make it more difficult for the pilot to spot useing gps.... then again... you should be spotting for yourself...



We would fly cross-wind often at pahokee. Rule of thumb was north/south or south/north jumpruns. East/West jumpruns would have put us out over the water "cross wind" better idea!
One Word "Alligators" hee-hee ;)

Tami



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scotty...!!!!!

tammy is kissing me again....

even though the jumprun is cross wind.... for simplicity's sake... i would still want the bell out first..

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>why would you fly jumprun crosswind?....

Better separation if people refuse to leave enough time between groups on windy days. Better separation if people insist on putting freeflyers out first.

>but you would think this would make it more difficult for the pilot to spot useing gps....

Not really; any pilot who understands throw, freefall drift, canopy drift, exit timing etc well enough to set up an into-the-wind jump run shouldn't have any trouble offsetting a crosswind jump run. Same issues apply.

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>our drop zone student gear is perfectly safe to freefly in.....

You have student gear with reserves rated for deployment at 160+ MPH? Where'd you get them? There have been an awful lot of people looking for such gear.



well i dont know the rating of the reserves at that speed..... but your putting yourself at risk at that speed with any reserve....

i jump a pd 106... and although i believe in pd and there products.. i would never subject a reserve deployment to it at that speed..... i wouldnt do that to any reserve at that speed .(on purpose)..... my point is the rig.... there is nothing coming loose from it. our stuudent rigs are just as safe. (or almost as safe) as my personal rig..... why would you have anything else for a student..?

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So where do you throw in solo students (aff completed) to this mix. . .does it depend on whether they are belly flying (me) or trying to do a little freeflying. . .or does it depend on pull altitude. . .



Well, first of all we do not recommend that you freefly in student gear for several reasons. Some have been made obvious in the last week or so. Now that you are a soloist, discuss the exit order with the other student solos; based on pull altitude. B|



depends on the drop zone...

our drop zone student gear is perfectly safe to freefly in.....



I understand that. I'm one of her instructors at Skydive Elsinore. We are using loaned gear and some of the student rigs have the BOC pouch with the slit in the middle and 2 whiffle ball handles on them. Just sitting on them may dislodge the PC. I've already heard of one premature deployment of a student using a similar one. To minimize an issue like this we instill all our students to get no less than 3 gear checks; before gearing up, before boarding, before exiting.

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our stuudent rigs are just as safe. (or almost as safe) as my personal rig..... why would you have anything else for a student..?



Well, we lost 15 student rigs in the fire. Most of them would have met your preferences.

Thank you to those DZs that have loaned us their student rigs.
The staff and students are very grateful for your offerings.

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> but your putting yourself at risk at that speed with any reserve....

Agreed, so as long as your students understand that their gear is _not_ rated for the speeds seen in freeflying, that's fine. (Not a relevation, since almost no gear nowadays is.)

>why would you have anything else for a student..?

Sometimes characteristics of student rigs (reserve side release, faster opening mains, student cypres, adjustable harnesses) make it safer for students in a program to use but more dangerous for solo jumps.

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> but your putting yourself at risk at that speed with any reserve....

Agreed, so as long as your students understand that their gear is _not_ rated for the speeds seen in freeflying, that's fine. (Not a relevation, since almost no gear nowadays is.)

>why would you have anything else for a student..?

Sometimes characteristics of student rigs (reserve side release, faster opening mains, student cypres, adjustable harnesses) make it safer for students in a program to use but more dangerous for solo jumps.



well in all reality i meant that the rig is safe for freeflying. but maybee not safe for a student to freefly in.....

i myself would not have a problem with freeflying in our student rigs...

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If you put flat out first and have AFF and tandem last you have just put Freefflyers "in the middle".

Aff1, 2, or three with video puts three flatflyers behind your freeflyers (I am discounting the student who deployed high but he could make it four).

Splain me how dis is better dan FF first?:S

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