Ron 7 #26 February 11, 2004 QuoteI'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics Oh sure like that means anything"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VanillaSkyGirl 6 #27 February 11, 2004 Quoteand we jump out of a c-182 That is a VERY important detail that you left out. Jumping from a cessna is a very different situation than jumping from a bigger plane. I also went through AFF at a small (but safe) DZ and jumped from a King Air, but I wanted to do my final AFF and first solo from their cessna for the novelty of it! Anyway, I did my final AFF...no problem. I think that we jumped out after the experienced jumper on board. Then, when I went to do my solo, I was out first...before the tandem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skygirl1 1 #28 February 11, 2004 In static line the students bail out.........and the plane goes up to altitude for experienced jumpers...but after 4 jumps the student is on free fall...and the students still get out first....yes, the plane might do a second pass for experienced jumpers.......I am sorry for the confusion.......florida is a whole new world of jumping for me....... thanx for all the great info so far skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,621 #29 February 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics Oh sure like that means anything I have to confess that it makes no corrections for relativistic effects or quantum mechanical effects (not that I couldn't include these).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sangiro 4 #30 February 11, 2004 Here's some more reading. A lot of what people are referring to here.Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #31 February 11, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh sure like that means anything -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to confess that it makes no corrections for relativistic effects or quantum mechanical effects (not that I couldn't include these). Oh yeah..PROVE it.And try to use small words that are in the english language OK? I have enough homework without looking up your explanations."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MarkM 0 #32 February 11, 2004 QuoteQuestion......my bf is a freeflier and has always been required to exit last......until we came to florida.........I am still a student and he got on the load to jump and watch my exit......he was told while boarding freefliers go out first.......he just shook his head and followed orders.....he was really pissed off about it and won't jump there anymore......any feedback???? would be appreciated.... skygirl1 Yeah. If this is the same boyfriend that got pissed about the riggers not packing his worn out 20 year old reserve(and won't jump at that dropzone anymore because of it), and now he won't jump at this dropzone because of exiting issues, you might want to get a new boyfriend before you run out of dropzones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CornishChris 5 #33 February 11, 2004 I have read various opinions on free out before flat and vice versa. At my DZ they often put students out first from the SkyVan - partly due to set up time in the door. I looked at Kallends graphs and whilst it is interesting it does have some flaws- absolutely no offence intended. This definitely demonstrates wind drift well but that is not the only factor to consider. The initial graph shows the free flier out first and the flat flier falls 'exactly' onto them. This happens twenty five seconds after the flat flier has opened. (10 sec wait on door & 15 seconds extra freefall). If you assume a forward speed of 25 mph for the freeflier under canopy and a vertical speed of 10mph this could put the freeflier a maximum of 260 metres away horizontally and 100 metres away vertically. If the free flier makes some funky turns then he/she will not be as far away horizontally but further vertically. Adequate seperation? If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under canopy than before. Canopies will be opening at similar times and the groups could have tracked into each other? Adequate seperation? I am not saying I agree or disagree with either way at the moment as I only have 135 jumps but it is interesting to note these extra issues. This is an issue that can be discussed at length (and has been) and that, ladies and gents, was my 0.02 Blue ones & adequate seperation to you all. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #34 February 11, 2004 The more you start thinking about things like how quickly two groups can drift together horizontally and how far the individuals in the group can track away from the center of the group, the more you start to think that you want one group on each pass. However, that is not going to happen, so we do what we can. Fast fallers last does increase canopy congestion, but I would rather sort that out under canopy than be killed in freefall. You're not any less dead when you wrap at 200 feet than you are when you fall through a canopy at 3000, but it is hoped that the former is easier to avoid than the latter. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,621 #35 February 11, 2004 QuoteI have read various opinions on free out before flat and vice versa. At my DZ they often put students out first from the SkyVan - partly due to set up time in the door. I looked at Kallends graphs and whilst it is interesting it does have some flaws- absolutely no offence intended. This definitely demonstrates wind drift well but that is not the only factor to consider. The initial graph shows the free flier out first and the flat flier falls 'exactly' onto them. This happens twenty five seconds after the flat flier has opened. (10 sec wait on door & 15 seconds extra freefall). If you assume a forward speed of 25 mph for the freeflier under canopy and a vertical speed of 10mph this could put the freeflier a maximum of 260 metres away horizontally and 100 metres away vertically. If the free flier makes some funky turns then he/she will not be as far away horizontally but further vertically. Adequate seperation? If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under canopy than before. Canopies will be opening at similar times and the groups could have tracked into each other? Adequate seperation? I am not saying I agree or disagree with either way at the moment as I only have 135 jumps but it is interesting to note these extra issues. This is an issue that can be discussed at length (and has been) and that, ladies and gents, was my 0.02 Blue ones & adequate seperation to you all. I'm not sure what you mean by initial graph. You set up the program any way you want, so what is the "initial" graph? As far as behavior under canopy is concerned, that is totally unpredictable by physics. The program outputs "average" behavior (that is, some will go upwind, some downwind, some crosswind, some will turn left, some right, some will have linetwists... and on average, a group just goes with the wind. Anyone deliberately flying into the space where the next group will be opening is, of course, a moron. I think I describe all this in the Powerpoint presentation that goes with the program.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,380 #36 February 11, 2004 >If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will > pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under > canopy than before. People can deal with congestion under canopy; I've landed in packs of 380 other people. People can't deal with collisions at opening time. The only time we had any collisions at opening time on the 372-way was when a cameraman essentially relied on vertical separation to avoid someone pulling out of the base. People in general could get clear because Rusty came up with a plan that afforded enough horizontal separation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,621 #37 February 11, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh sure like that means anything -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to confess that it makes no corrections for relativistic effects or quantum mechanical effects (not that I couldn't include these). Oh yeah..PROVE it.And try to use small words that are in the english language OK? I have enough homework without looking up your explanations. Well, if I know my fall rate to the nearest meter/second, the quantum uncertainty (Heisenberg principle) in my position is around 5 x 10^-36 meters, which is way smaller than the radius of a proton. On the whole, I don't think this makes a lot of difference to the likelihood of having a freefall collision..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #38 February 11, 2004 QuoteI have read various opinions on free out before flat and vice versa. At my DZ they often put students out first from the SkyVan - partly due to set up time in the door. I looked at Kallends graphs and whilst it is interesting it does have some flaws- absolutely no offence intended. This definitely demonstrates wind drift well but that is not the only factor to consider. The initial graph shows the free flier out first and the flat flier falls 'exactly' onto them. This happens twenty five seconds after the flat flier has opened. (10 sec wait on door & 15 seconds extra freefall). If you assume a forward speed of 25 mph for the freeflier under canopy and a vertical speed of 10mph this could put the freeflier a maximum of 260 metres away horizontally and 100 metres away vertically. If the free flier makes some funky turns then he/she will not be as far away horizontally but further vertically. Adequate seperation? If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under canopy than before. Canopies will be opening at similar times and the groups could have tracked into each other? Adequate seperation? I am not saying I agree or disagree with either way at the moment as I only have 135 jumps but it is interesting to note these extra issues. This is an issue that can be discussed at length (and has been) and that, ladies and gents, was my 0.02 Blue ones & adequate seperation to you all. i see peaple calling this issue an opinion.... i dont think it is an opinion "in my opinion". it is fact. ive had way too many close calls with freeflyers out first. this is also fact!.. i will not jump at a drop zone that puts freefliers out first. just because of the simple fact that i do not want to get killed.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skygirl1 1 #39 February 11, 2004 wow...........i am really getting alot of info here...i guess it is ultimately up to the dropzone and then your personal choice to jump or not........I just know exiting first as a freeflier before students really rubbed him wrong......and I was wondering why.....a lot of good info to take in......... skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CornishChris 5 #40 February 11, 2004 QuotePeople can deal with congestion under canopy; I've landed in packs of 380 other people. People can't deal with collisions at opening time. I agree. This was my point. Kallends graph of free out first predicts collisions based on wind drift. I stated that this would not happen in his example as the ff would open 25 seconds prior to the flat. I am not making the point that free should go first - I don't think they should. I am saying that whilst Kallends tool is useful to demonstrate wind drift it does not look at other factors. I do not wish to die in a canopy collision or a freefall collision and agree that canopy collisions are more easy to avoid. i just have a hard time in understanding why if two groups are opening at the same time (flat out first and then free) there is less danger than with free flyers opening 20 seconds before hand. It seems to me that wind drift aside a 4 way flat followed by a four way free has more chance of meeting somewhere in the middle on track off than the other way round. i.e. one from each group tracks directly at the other and due to the speed difference they will be opening at similar times. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #41 February 11, 2004 Once again, all this discussion really relates specifically to turbine dropzones with lots of groups per pass. A freefall collision from a Cessna will kill you just as dead as one from a larger plane, but the small number of groups from the Cessna allows the jump run to be divided into big enough chunks for ample separation. It is a lot easier to divide the sky between two groups than ten. I would be quite comfortable getting out to do a solo freefly first from a Cessna with a two jumpmaster AFF behind me, since they would be able to leave about 50 seconds after me, even on a low-uppers day. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bmcd308 0 #42 February 11, 2004 >> i just have a hard time in understanding why if two groups are opening at the same time (flat out first and then free) there is less danger than with free flyers opening 20 seconds before hand. << Because even though they opened twenty seconds earlier, the center of the two groups is closer together than it would have been had they opened at the same time. >It seems to me that wind drift aside a 4 way flat followed by a four way free has more chance of meeting somewhere in the middle on track off than the other way round. i.e. one from each group tracks directly at the other and due to the speed difference they will be opening at similar times. < But wind drift is what it is all about. Even if there are no upper winds whatsoever, the slower-falling RW group will not get as much forward throw as the freefliers, because their body position makes them bleed off the initial horizontal component of their trajectory more quickly. The freefliers, on the other hand, will have more forward throw. So in no wind, just the difference in forward throw would tend to increase rather than decrease the separation between the groups if the belly guys go out first. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #43 February 12, 2004 Quotewow...........i am really getting alot of info here...i guess it is ultimately up to the dropzone and then your personal choice to jump or not........I just know exiting first as a freeflier before students really rubbed him wrong......and I was wondering why.....a lot of good info to take in......... skygirl1 now i have no problem with aff's or tandams or even both leaving behind the freeflyers.... i think the order should go just as hooknswoop said. big belly to small belly.. big free to small free. aff's then tandams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites redramdriver 0 #44 February 12, 2004 That about sums it up where I jump too!So, you bring your beer? Its 5 o'clock somewhere POPS #9344 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyyhi 0 #45 February 12, 2004 So where do you throw in solo students (aff completed) to this mix. . .does it depend on whether they are belly flying (me) or trying to do a little freeflying. . .or does it depend on pull altitude. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #46 February 12, 2004 QuoteSo where do you throw in solo students (aff completed) to this mix. . .does it depend on whether they are belly flying (me) or trying to do a little freeflying. . .or does it depend on pull altitude. . . i dont think pull alt is really relavent when there are winds... big belly to little belly.. big free to little free.. aff then tandams.. solos would = last of the belly flyers. if they were belly flying and if freeflying then the last of the freeflyers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stoneycase 0 #47 February 12, 2004 Check this link out and download the program. http://skyjuggler.com/drift/tech_details.html Nice little program I found on the web, it's not mine so I deserve zero credit. It's a freefall simulator. Input some information and bang the program displays a simulated freefall using the information you provide. You might also want to give it to your BF he might get a kick out of it. It definitely opened my eyes as far as the exit progression goes. I would also imagine this would be good for you because you are a student, and anything that can "bring to life" what you are being taught is a good thing. There's more info on how to use the program on the web. Of course some exceptions are out there. Hit up Google and look for "freefall simulator".Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #48 February 12, 2004 Flat first is better. The ONLY way to make FF first safe is to allow a really large gap between FF to Flat. That can cause a go around.....As long as the DZ does not care...then its cool. Two passes are safer than one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites marks 0 #49 February 12, 2004 QuoteFlat first is better. The ONLY way to make FF first safe is to allow a really large gap between FF to Flat. That can cause a go around.....As long as the DZ does not care...then its cool. Two passes are safer than one. and or running jump run down wind... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #50 February 12, 2004 QuoteWell, if I know my fall rate to the nearest meter/second, the quantum uncertainty (Heisenberg principle) in my position is around 5 x 10^-36 meters, which is way smaller than the radius of a proton. On the whole, I don't think this makes a lot of difference to the likelihood of having a freefall collision.. John...I AKSED for english, and you give me 5 x 10^-36 .... Thanks a lot, I don't take my math class until Oct....Now I'll have to wait 8 mths to know what the hell this means."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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skygirl1 1 #28 February 11, 2004 In static line the students bail out.........and the plane goes up to altitude for experienced jumpers...but after 4 jumps the student is on free fall...and the students still get out first....yes, the plane might do a second pass for experienced jumpers.......I am sorry for the confusion.......florida is a whole new world of jumping for me....... thanx for all the great info so far skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #29 February 11, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics Oh sure like that means anything I have to confess that it makes no corrections for relativistic effects or quantum mechanical effects (not that I couldn't include these).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sangiro 4 #30 February 11, 2004 Here's some more reading. A lot of what people are referring to here.Safe swoops Sangiro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #31 February 11, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh sure like that means anything -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to confess that it makes no corrections for relativistic effects or quantum mechanical effects (not that I couldn't include these). Oh yeah..PROVE it.And try to use small words that are in the english language OK? I have enough homework without looking up your explanations."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #32 February 11, 2004 QuoteQuestion......my bf is a freeflier and has always been required to exit last......until we came to florida.........I am still a student and he got on the load to jump and watch my exit......he was told while boarding freefliers go out first.......he just shook his head and followed orders.....he was really pissed off about it and won't jump there anymore......any feedback???? would be appreciated.... skygirl1 Yeah. If this is the same boyfriend that got pissed about the riggers not packing his worn out 20 year old reserve(and won't jump at that dropzone anymore because of it), and now he won't jump at this dropzone because of exiting issues, you might want to get a new boyfriend before you run out of dropzones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #33 February 11, 2004 I have read various opinions on free out before flat and vice versa. At my DZ they often put students out first from the SkyVan - partly due to set up time in the door. I looked at Kallends graphs and whilst it is interesting it does have some flaws- absolutely no offence intended. This definitely demonstrates wind drift well but that is not the only factor to consider. The initial graph shows the free flier out first and the flat flier falls 'exactly' onto them. This happens twenty five seconds after the flat flier has opened. (10 sec wait on door & 15 seconds extra freefall). If you assume a forward speed of 25 mph for the freeflier under canopy and a vertical speed of 10mph this could put the freeflier a maximum of 260 metres away horizontally and 100 metres away vertically. If the free flier makes some funky turns then he/she will not be as far away horizontally but further vertically. Adequate seperation? If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under canopy than before. Canopies will be opening at similar times and the groups could have tracked into each other? Adequate seperation? I am not saying I agree or disagree with either way at the moment as I only have 135 jumps but it is interesting to note these extra issues. This is an issue that can be discussed at length (and has been) and that, ladies and gents, was my 0.02 Blue ones & adequate seperation to you all. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #34 February 11, 2004 The more you start thinking about things like how quickly two groups can drift together horizontally and how far the individuals in the group can track away from the center of the group, the more you start to think that you want one group on each pass. However, that is not going to happen, so we do what we can. Fast fallers last does increase canopy congestion, but I would rather sort that out under canopy than be killed in freefall. You're not any less dead when you wrap at 200 feet than you are when you fall through a canopy at 3000, but it is hoped that the former is easier to avoid than the latter. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #35 February 11, 2004 QuoteI have read various opinions on free out before flat and vice versa. At my DZ they often put students out first from the SkyVan - partly due to set up time in the door. I looked at Kallends graphs and whilst it is interesting it does have some flaws- absolutely no offence intended. This definitely demonstrates wind drift well but that is not the only factor to consider. The initial graph shows the free flier out first and the flat flier falls 'exactly' onto them. This happens twenty five seconds after the flat flier has opened. (10 sec wait on door & 15 seconds extra freefall). If you assume a forward speed of 25 mph for the freeflier under canopy and a vertical speed of 10mph this could put the freeflier a maximum of 260 metres away horizontally and 100 metres away vertically. If the free flier makes some funky turns then he/she will not be as far away horizontally but further vertically. Adequate seperation? If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under canopy than before. Canopies will be opening at similar times and the groups could have tracked into each other? Adequate seperation? I am not saying I agree or disagree with either way at the moment as I only have 135 jumps but it is interesting to note these extra issues. This is an issue that can be discussed at length (and has been) and that, ladies and gents, was my 0.02 Blue ones & adequate seperation to you all. I'm not sure what you mean by initial graph. You set up the program any way you want, so what is the "initial" graph? As far as behavior under canopy is concerned, that is totally unpredictable by physics. The program outputs "average" behavior (that is, some will go upwind, some downwind, some crosswind, some will turn left, some right, some will have linetwists... and on average, a group just goes with the wind. Anyone deliberately flying into the space where the next group will be opening is, of course, a moron. I think I describe all this in the Powerpoint presentation that goes with the program.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #36 February 11, 2004 >If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will > pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under > canopy than before. People can deal with congestion under canopy; I've landed in packs of 380 other people. People can't deal with collisions at opening time. The only time we had any collisions at opening time on the 372-way was when a cameraman essentially relied on vertical separation to avoid someone pulling out of the base. People in general could get clear because Rusty came up with a plan that afforded enough horizontal separation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #37 February 11, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure what you mean by "mockup". It's physics. It solves and graphs the equations of motion using the laws of physics and fluid dynamics -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh sure like that means anything -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to confess that it makes no corrections for relativistic effects or quantum mechanical effects (not that I couldn't include these). Oh yeah..PROVE it.And try to use small words that are in the english language OK? I have enough homework without looking up your explanations. Well, if I know my fall rate to the nearest meter/second, the quantum uncertainty (Heisenberg principle) in my position is around 5 x 10^-36 meters, which is way smaller than the radius of a proton. On the whole, I don't think this makes a lot of difference to the likelihood of having a freefall collision..... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #38 February 11, 2004 QuoteI have read various opinions on free out before flat and vice versa. At my DZ they often put students out first from the SkyVan - partly due to set up time in the door. I looked at Kallends graphs and whilst it is interesting it does have some flaws- absolutely no offence intended. This definitely demonstrates wind drift well but that is not the only factor to consider. The initial graph shows the free flier out first and the flat flier falls 'exactly' onto them. This happens twenty five seconds after the flat flier has opened. (10 sec wait on door & 15 seconds extra freefall). If you assume a forward speed of 25 mph for the freeflier under canopy and a vertical speed of 10mph this could put the freeflier a maximum of 260 metres away horizontally and 100 metres away vertically. If the free flier makes some funky turns then he/she will not be as far away horizontally but further vertically. Adequate seperation? If you take it the other way and stick the flat out first, the two will pass at 6K as described and there will be more congestion under canopy than before. Canopies will be opening at similar times and the groups could have tracked into each other? Adequate seperation? I am not saying I agree or disagree with either way at the moment as I only have 135 jumps but it is interesting to note these extra issues. This is an issue that can be discussed at length (and has been) and that, ladies and gents, was my 0.02 Blue ones & adequate seperation to you all. i see peaple calling this issue an opinion.... i dont think it is an opinion "in my opinion". it is fact. ive had way too many close calls with freeflyers out first. this is also fact!.. i will not jump at a drop zone that puts freefliers out first. just because of the simple fact that i do not want to get killed.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygirl1 1 #39 February 11, 2004 wow...........i am really getting alot of info here...i guess it is ultimately up to the dropzone and then your personal choice to jump or not........I just know exiting first as a freeflier before students really rubbed him wrong......and I was wondering why.....a lot of good info to take in......... skygirl1" Mean people SUCK!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #40 February 11, 2004 QuotePeople can deal with congestion under canopy; I've landed in packs of 380 other people. People can't deal with collisions at opening time. I agree. This was my point. Kallends graph of free out first predicts collisions based on wind drift. I stated that this would not happen in his example as the ff would open 25 seconds prior to the flat. I am not making the point that free should go first - I don't think they should. I am saying that whilst Kallends tool is useful to demonstrate wind drift it does not look at other factors. I do not wish to die in a canopy collision or a freefall collision and agree that canopy collisions are more easy to avoid. i just have a hard time in understanding why if two groups are opening at the same time (flat out first and then free) there is less danger than with free flyers opening 20 seconds before hand. It seems to me that wind drift aside a 4 way flat followed by a four way free has more chance of meeting somewhere in the middle on track off than the other way round. i.e. one from each group tracks directly at the other and due to the speed difference they will be opening at similar times. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #41 February 11, 2004 Once again, all this discussion really relates specifically to turbine dropzones with lots of groups per pass. A freefall collision from a Cessna will kill you just as dead as one from a larger plane, but the small number of groups from the Cessna allows the jump run to be divided into big enough chunks for ample separation. It is a lot easier to divide the sky between two groups than ten. I would be quite comfortable getting out to do a solo freefly first from a Cessna with a two jumpmaster AFF behind me, since they would be able to leave about 50 seconds after me, even on a low-uppers day. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #42 February 11, 2004 >> i just have a hard time in understanding why if two groups are opening at the same time (flat out first and then free) there is less danger than with free flyers opening 20 seconds before hand. << Because even though they opened twenty seconds earlier, the center of the two groups is closer together than it would have been had they opened at the same time. >It seems to me that wind drift aside a 4 way flat followed by a four way free has more chance of meeting somewhere in the middle on track off than the other way round. i.e. one from each group tracks directly at the other and due to the speed difference they will be opening at similar times. < But wind drift is what it is all about. Even if there are no upper winds whatsoever, the slower-falling RW group will not get as much forward throw as the freefliers, because their body position makes them bleed off the initial horizontal component of their trajectory more quickly. The freefliers, on the other hand, will have more forward throw. So in no wind, just the difference in forward throw would tend to increase rather than decrease the separation between the groups if the belly guys go out first. Brent ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #43 February 12, 2004 Quotewow...........i am really getting alot of info here...i guess it is ultimately up to the dropzone and then your personal choice to jump or not........I just know exiting first as a freeflier before students really rubbed him wrong......and I was wondering why.....a lot of good info to take in......... skygirl1 now i have no problem with aff's or tandams or even both leaving behind the freeflyers.... i think the order should go just as hooknswoop said. big belly to small belly.. big free to small free. aff's then tandams.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redramdriver 0 #44 February 12, 2004 That about sums it up where I jump too!So, you bring your beer? Its 5 o'clock somewhere POPS #9344 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #45 February 12, 2004 So where do you throw in solo students (aff completed) to this mix. . .does it depend on whether they are belly flying (me) or trying to do a little freeflying. . .or does it depend on pull altitude. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #46 February 12, 2004 QuoteSo where do you throw in solo students (aff completed) to this mix. . .does it depend on whether they are belly flying (me) or trying to do a little freeflying. . .or does it depend on pull altitude. . . i dont think pull alt is really relavent when there are winds... big belly to little belly.. big free to little free.. aff then tandams.. solos would = last of the belly flyers. if they were belly flying and if freeflying then the last of the freeflyers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stoneycase 0 #47 February 12, 2004 Check this link out and download the program. http://skyjuggler.com/drift/tech_details.html Nice little program I found on the web, it's not mine so I deserve zero credit. It's a freefall simulator. Input some information and bang the program displays a simulated freefall using the information you provide. You might also want to give it to your BF he might get a kick out of it. It definitely opened my eyes as far as the exit progression goes. I would also imagine this would be good for you because you are a student, and anything that can "bring to life" what you are being taught is a good thing. There's more info on how to use the program on the web. Of course some exceptions are out there. Hit up Google and look for "freefall simulator".Does whisky count as beer? - Homer There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #48 February 12, 2004 Flat first is better. The ONLY way to make FF first safe is to allow a really large gap between FF to Flat. That can cause a go around.....As long as the DZ does not care...then its cool. Two passes are safer than one."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #49 February 12, 2004 QuoteFlat first is better. The ONLY way to make FF first safe is to allow a really large gap between FF to Flat. That can cause a go around.....As long as the DZ does not care...then its cool. Two passes are safer than one. and or running jump run down wind... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #50 February 12, 2004 QuoteWell, if I know my fall rate to the nearest meter/second, the quantum uncertainty (Heisenberg principle) in my position is around 5 x 10^-36 meters, which is way smaller than the radius of a proton. On the whole, I don't think this makes a lot of difference to the likelihood of having a freefall collision.. John...I AKSED for english, and you give me 5 x 10^-36 .... Thanks a lot, I don't take my math class until Oct....Now I'll have to wait 8 mths to know what the hell this means."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
