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Feeblemind

Landing a parachute is a team sport!

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At what point do you think I saw him? at 20 sec on the video he looked like he was landing south, when he comes into frame on a .4 lens I have already turned onto final and I am less than 3o feet of the ground at 35 MPH with tandem masters and students to my left and him moving from my left to my right, where the fuck did you want me to go? After I make my turn to final he comes into frame at 32 seconds of this video and I am on the ground at 35 seconds. It takes 3/4 of a second for the human body to see something and react which left me 2 1/4 seconds at 15 feet off the ground at 35 MPH where in the hell should I have went? did you want me to toggle whip it into the ground? I am all ears....


Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

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Feeblemind

I have already turned onto final and I am less than 3o feet of the ground at 35 MPH with tandem masters and students to my left



Serious question from a complete newbie - why would you aim to land so close to the tandems and students when you had that whole big field to land in? I'm guessing that students and tandem passengers might also not be very aware of their surroundings so I would have thought it would be safer to give them a lot of space too to avoid the potential of one of them walking in front of you as you land.

It looks as though you closed down your options because of where you chose to land, though that doesn't excuse the muppet who cut in front of you!
A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

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PixieUK

Serious question from a complete newbie - why would you aim to land so close to the tandems and students when you had that whole big field to land in?



I guess because if you can land at a convenient spot and expect to do so safely, you do. That one tiny little landing area section seems to have gravel on it rather than what I'm guessing is hard packed desert dirt, and so in effect becomes the ideal landing target.

On the video, near the start one can see another jumper flying in along the same path the OP lands in, along the long axis of that gravel landing area. One can see a third jumper doing the same at 20 sec in. That guy has a blue canopy with lighter stripes --- probably the guy who at the end flies in on an angle causing the problem.

So initially it looks like he's going to land in the proper direction, and is even in sight of the OP. But I'm thinking the guy then found himself a bit high or something and swung wide before flying back in to landing at an angle to the axis of the gravel area.

So there was a chance for the OP to see the problem guy, who was actually out in front of the OP at one point. In setting up his own landing, the OP either didn't notice or failed to keep track of where the problem guy was, perhaps not expecting him to swerve off to the side of the normal landing run before angling back in. This doesn't excuse the other guy's landing approach. So there was actually an opportunity to notice the potential problem early, but in real life we don't always see all the details that are evident in a later detailed video review.

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I would say the OP was right all things considered. However this a symptom of DZOs having these little target areas that everyone wants to land on. Does it cost that much extra to lay and water a larger area of sod?
Was the guy a visiting jumper? Do you usually land to the "fucking west" and this was the one weird time where you didnt?
That probably wouldnt have been a life ender but it would have sucked for sure.
You could also tag the video so it can be found under "what a douche sounds like".

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PixieUK

Serious question from a complete newbie - why would you aim to land so close to the tandems and students when you had that whole big field to land in?



pchapman

I guess because if you can land at a convenient spot and expect to do so safely, you do. That one tiny little landing area section seems to have gravel on it rather than what I'm guessing is hard packed desert dirt, and so in effect becomes the ideal landing target.



monkycndo

Maybe he was shooting video of a tandem and needed to land where the tandems land?



Thanks guys - our main landing area is a big grassy field, then we have harvested corn fields all around it so the earth is quite soft (if a little spiky from cut corn stalks!). And I hadn't thought about videographers.

Definitely a good reminder to keep aware of everyone else as now I'm starting my solo jumps, I may not always be the last one down (though on my huge student 260, I'm not holding my breath on that one :D )
A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

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Pixie, look before you turn....Up and down as well. When a canopy comes flying towards you, it happens shit fast. When it is close to the ground like here, your heart stops. I had a cutoff at about 60ft...and that nearly ended very bad for the both of us.

OP - could have carved it to the left, banging end cells on the students heads...LOL.
You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

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PixieUK

***I have already turned onto final and I am less than 3o feet of the ground at 35 MPH with tandem masters and students to my left



Serious question from a complete newbie - why would you aim to land so close to the tandems and students when you had that whole big field to land in? I'm guessing that students and tandem passengers might also not be very aware of their surroundings so I would have thought it would be safer to give them a lot of space too to avoid the potential of one of them walking in front of you as you land.


I was doing a Tandem video and that is where the tandems land.

rnicks

I get that you were hopped up on adrenaline after just almost having a serious accident, but screaming and swearing is probably not the best way to handle it.



I had just talked to this crew the jump prior about the exact same thing as had the DZO after I did, I was more than a little pissed this guy put me in danger. If I was on my smaller canopy this would have ended quite differently. you may be the calm mellow type, I am not. I expect in this sport for folks to take safety seriously, and when a regular and the DZO just told you on the last jump that we do not land to the west, advised him to get another airport briefing from manifest and then he does it again, yea I was a little pissed off. I didn't really relish the though of laying on my back broken with no means to support my family!

Sometimes being a "Douche" is the only way to get you point across, I guess rnicks and demoknite after the second incident in 2 jumps would calmly ask them why they insist on not following the pattern and being unsafe, especially after the almost had a collision. It amazes me how folks will armchair quarterback the reaction and ignore the incident. I'll go mute the audio and maybe someone will learn something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvVzIs3KfZM


Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

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Reading with awe the responses here.

In reply to the first response, backintothesky posted a prime example above as to why this camera flyer did the right thing.

From the attitude of the offender here he appears to be one of those fucksticks that is determined to land into the wind no matter what everyone else is doing or what he is told.

Trying to place blame on the poster here is the one on a large list of the stupidest things I've ever seen here.

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CSpenceFLY

Reading with awe the responses here.

In reply to the first response, backintothesky posted a prime example above as to why this camera flyer did the right thing.

From the attitude of the offender here he appears to be one of those fucksticks that is determined to land into the wind no matter what everyone else is doing or what he is told.

Trying to place blame on the poster here is the one on a large list of the stupidest things I've ever seen here.



I don't blame the OP for all of what happened, but it is common to see jumpers commit to the landing area and tunnel vision their way to it. BOTH jumpers involved are fixated on the the landing area and not looking for traffic. Down low is where it is most critical to be mindful of other people but it is where jumpers absolute lock their gaze on the intended landing spot eliminating any peripheral vision.

Good drivers are aware of traffic, check mirrors, and leave themselves "outs" in case another driver makes an error; same is true for good canopy drivers. How's about everyone fly with a little more vision and little more advanced planning and a little more room for error? Then we don't wind up with these kinds of video, filling out Incident Reports, or a brawl in the landing area.

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>Sometimes being a "Douche" is the only way to get you point across

Or it can guarantee that the person doesn't hear you.

Consider if you made a similar mistake. Would you listen more to a screaming douchebag or someone who told you in a more rational manner about why they were concerned about what you did? Many people have filters that filter out douches (I do.)

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I probably would realise that i scared the shit out of them and could have killed them. If someone screams at me in another context i would ignore them till they calmed down. In that situation I actually think the OP was being quite polite given the circumstances.

billvon

>Sometimes being a "Douche" is the only way to get you point across

Or it can guarantee that the person doesn't hear you.

Consider if you made a similar mistake. Would you listen more to a screaming douchebag or someone who told you in a more rational manner about why they were concerned about what you did? Many people have filters that filter out douches (I do.)

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Backintothesky

I probably would realise that i scared the shit out of them and could have killed them. If someone screams at me in another context i would ignore them till they calmed down. In that situation I actually think the OP was being quite polite given the circumstances.

***>Sometimes being a "Douche" is the only way to get you point across

Or it can guarantee that the person doesn't hear you.

Consider if you made a similar mistake. Would you listen more to a screaming douchebag or someone who told you in a more rational manner about why they were concerned about what you did? Many people have filters that filter out douches (I do.)




Considering the offenders caviler attitude I'd say he did very well for not punching him in the face.

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the way I saw the video, it seems that both jumpers are at fault.
One for not respecting the planned landing direction
The other one for overtaking by his last turn. Lower canopy has right of way doesn't it ? And doing very little to avoid the possible collision just to prove that he is right.
Both jumpers don't seem to have heads on a swivel.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Anachronist

This is also what happens when you mix high performance landings and normal landings in the same air space.......



What did the OP do, like a 45 degree front riser? Maybe a little more? And the other guy out of camera, he maybe sashayed a little? Technically an "accelerated" landing for the OP but hardly high performance. More like barely-better-than-a-mind-boring-straight-in-like-some-student. Of course in this case, a more boring outcome would have been welcome.

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billvon

>Sometimes being a "Douche" is the only way to get you point across

Or it can guarantee that the person doesn't hear you.

Consider if you made a similar mistake. Would you listen more to a screaming douchebag or someone who told you in a more rational manner about why they were concerned about what you did? Many people have filters that filter out douches (I do.)



Bill,

I was kind the first time and the DZO also talked to them, that would be the second time. I swear does anyone at all read all the posts before they chime in? at what time is it appropriate to get annoyed with someone is unsafe? I guess I won't say shit anymore, or get angry when it is the 3rd time they are told. I will turn a blind eye like everyone else and then when someone gets killed I will be part of the problem not the solution.

Also, watch the movement of the camera, there were only 5 people in the sky as the first group of tandems got out at 9. You can see the canopy pass below me (below 400' on what appears to be final as he is close to the ground) you can see the white canopy landing in the peas, that leaves me and the tandem above me, thus EVERYONE accounted for. I did a 90 on final, hardly a high performance landing.

Also, there is about 20-25 acres to land in and one small section of peas for the tandems.

If I ever decide to post here again I will make sure it is a minimum 500 word document with witness statements to make sure it is clear as crystal. Until recently this forum was a learning place, now it's more like a dart board. I was very tired when I posted the video which was my bad for not giving a clear explanation of the events pre-ceeding this incident and the number of the jumpers in the air, the location and size of the landing area, number of jumpers already on the ground, those left in the sky, winds aloft at 12k, 9k, 6k, 3k and on the ground as well as the color of jump suits used and color canopies of everyone on the load. Next time will that cover it?? if not please feel free to ask rather than assume, it will produce a much greater learning environment.


Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

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piisfish

the way I saw the video, it seems that both jumpers are at fault.
One for not respecting the planned landing direction
The other one for overtaking by his last turn. Lower canopy has right of way doesn't it ? And doing very little to avoid the possible collision just to prove that he is right.
Both jumpers don't seem to have heads on a swivel.



Piss read above, I had 3 seconds what should I have done?? and that's with a ,4 on the lens so lets say more like 2 by the time my vision picked it up. I am all ears...


Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

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Feeblemind

***>Sometimes being a "Douche" is the only way to get you point across

Or it can guarantee that the person doesn't hear you.

Consider if you made a similar mistake. Would you listen more to a screaming douchebag or someone who told you in a more rational manner about why they were concerned about what you did? Many people have filters that filter out douches (I do.)



Bill,

I was kind the first time and the DZO also talked to them, that would be the second time. I swear does anyone at all read all the posts before they chime in? at what time is it appropriate to get annoyed with someone is unsafe? I guess I won't say shit anymore, or get angry when it is the 3rd time they are told. I will turn a blind eye like everyone else and then when someone gets killed I will be part of the problem not the solution.

Also, watch the movement of the camera, there were only 5 people in the sky as the first group of tandems got out at 9. You can see the canopy pass below me (below 400' on what appears to be final as he is close to the ground) you can see the white canopy landing in the peas, that leaves me and the tandem above me, thus EVERYONE accounted for. I did a 90 on final, hardly a high performance landing.

Also, there is about 20-25 acres to land in and one small section of peas for the tandems.

If I ever decide to post here again I will make sure it is a minimum 500 word document with witness statements to make sure it is clear as crystal. Until recently this forum was a learning place, now it's more like a dart board. I was very tired when I posted the video which was my bad for not giving a clear explanation of the events pre-ceeding this incident and the number of the jumpers in the air, the location and size of the landing area, number of jumpers already on the ground, those left in the sky, winds aloft at 12k, 9k, 6k, 3k and on the ground as well as the color of jump suits used and color canopies of everyone on the load. Next time will that cover it?? if not please feel free to ask rather than assume, it will produce a much greater learning environment.

If you read the first few posts, I dont think anyone on here disagreed that you were in fact in the right. However this is the internet, and 95% of this site is about armchair quaterbacking. If you arent ready for some devils advocate dont post. Even Brian Germain and Bill Booth get dissenting posts on here. I think the only problem is your perceived internet tough guy attitude. It's a risky business and we will never cure of it 100% of idiots. As soon as you board your chances of injury or death begin, so you can blame your less- than-perfect pilot, rigger, aircraft mechanic, air traffic controller or fellow skydivers if you cant support your family if you get hurt because it will always be someone elses fault.

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Feeblemind

***the way I saw the video, it seems that both jumpers are at fault.
One for not respecting the planned landing direction
The other one for overtaking by his last turn. Lower canopy has right of way doesn't it ? And doing very little to avoid the possible collision just to prove that he is right.
Both jumpers don't seem to have heads on a swivel.



Piss read above, I had 3 seconds what should I have done?? and that's with a ,4 on the lens so lets say more like 2 by the time my vision picked it up. I am all ears...


Not tryin' to pile on here - just maybe raise a couple of points~

By your bio you have 1700 jumps - your situational awareness most likely allowed you more than 2 seconds ~ or at least it should have.

I'm a hardcore head on a swivel guy, I usually have a pretty good handle on who is doin' what & where - Especially down low when it comes to the possibility of flight paths intersecting.

The 'other guy' may have screwed up - but hell that happens, ya gotta be watching and anticipating it.



Regarding the emotional outburst ~
I get it, you were pumped and you were pissed...

The thing is ~ as was mentioned above, that really doesn't 'solve' the problem.

If anything it only serves to close down the communication by raising the level of ingrained defense mechanism most of us have in our hard drives.

The first thing most people think to themselves when being screamed/cussed at is "What an asshole - YOU can't talk to ME that way!"

So whether right or wrong, the possibility of sane/calm communication gets lost for a while until cooler heads can analyze & properly debrief.

It behooves you to have complete control of your emotions & reactions to such things, especially in this type of environment.

Most of us are type A aggressive personalities, we're reasonably intelligent, somewhat athletic & we ALL have egos...however that's both good AND bad.

Don't take this wrong but...:)

Even if I fucked up big-time ~ If anyone starts screaming at me, cussing me out while fast walkin' & heading my way...I'll drop them - no discussion.

To me that person is an 'out of control' hothead that's making an aggressive move toward me...if they are THAT upset and 'out of control' they IMO may attempt to physically assault me.

We all have seen it happen before, sometime/somewhere...often in a bar at closing time.

I'd react the same way at work or on the street...so probably would you.

The negative reaction is a conditioned defensive response to a perceived threat from someone not in control of himself...don't be THAT guy. :)

The yelling & screaming really isn't necessary...you can & should make your point calm & collected.

It WILL get better results, heck you can see by the reaction you're getting from people who weren't even there...the tirade makes a negative & lasting impression.;)



Oh and ~ glad ya didn't get dead because of someone else being careless! B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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