Unhook or not to unhook RSL with two canopies out?

[Safelandings 0]

I just rencently got my "A" and have not been back to my drop zone to ask this question. I have been told and also read that when you have two canopies out to disconnect your RSL if you have time before you cut away. What is the reason for this since the reserve is already depolyed.

[grue 1]

Safelandings

I just rencently got my "A" and have not been back to my drop zone to ask this question. I have been told and also read that when you have two canopies out to disconnect your RSL if you have time before you cut away. What is the reason for this since the reserve is already depolyed.

The lanyard adds that extra little bit of snag possibility.

cavete terrae.

[Safelandings 0]

I haven't see the lanyard on the RSL to how long it is. I assumed it would only be about 6-8" long. So I wouldn't think that would be long enough to snag. But I'm am very new and still learning. So what would know.

[sundevil777 93]

The length of the lanyard is not the issue with its ability to be a snag hazard. The issue is the shackle itself. It can grab a line, get stuck in a cascade or other point where line meets canopy, etc.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JeffCa 0]

Safelandings

I have been told and also read that when you have two canopies out to disconnect your RSL if you have time before you cut away. What is the reason for this since the reserve is already depolyed.

I've got a new Racer with RSL, and this is an absolute life-or-death requirement. Racer has a double-sided RSL which consists of a lanyard from one riser to the other. If I have 2 canopies out, and one is in front of the other (forget which in front and which in back), then I must disconnect the RSL from at least one side before I cutaway or the departing main and RSL can choke off the reserve. It doesn't matter to me which has to be in front, because I don't want to think about it in a pressure situation and make an error. For me, 2 canopies out = disconnect RSL, no matter what!

Best solution for me (edit to add: and for you!) is to NEVER have 2 out! Maintain altitude awareness, check reserve pins and handle before each jump, and hope the AAD does its job correctly without a premature cut. I already had a floating reserve handle when gearing up for my first jump on the new gear, because some guy at the DZ came and played with it before I ever put it on. He didn't put it back properly.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[Safelandings 0]

I guess this all makes sense. It was just a question that just popped into my head. Now I have the answer. You disconnect just as an added prevention of a possible snag.

Thanks guys

[nigel99 143]

Safelandings

I haven't see the lanyard on the RSL to how long it is. I assumed it would only be about 6-8" long. So I wouldn't think that would be long enough to snag. But I'm am very new and still learning. So what would know.

Don't be fooled or complacent by size of the hazard. I've ended up under a reserve because of a 5mm snag hazard. Pissfish has a horror story that nearly killed him with a snag hazard much less than 6-8 inches. There's plenty of examples of small things snagging over the years.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Safelandings

I haven't see the lanyard on the RSL to how long it is. I assumed it would only be about 6-8" long. So I wouldn't think that would be long enough to snag. But I'm am very new and still learning. So what would know.

It sounds like it is time for you to watch a reserve inpection and re-pack! That is time VERY well spent.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[piisfish 135]

nigel99

Pissfish has a horror story that nearly killed him with a snag hazard much less than 6-8 inches.

-it is Piis not Piss
-it was less than half an inch. The 6 inches is another horror story

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Changing the subject slightly, the way you phrased the question implies you consider cutting away to be a given. If that is so you should talk to your instructors/mentors about two out decision making.

[airtwardo 6]

Andrewwhyte

Changing the subject slightly, the way you phrased the question implies you consider cutting away to be a given. If that is so you should talk to your instructors/mentors about two out decision making.

...and maybe take out the rig and get familiar with every part of it!

I applaud the OP asking for clarification regarding procedure and the reasoning behind it - at least he knows what he doesn't know.

But seriously ~ Knowing what's where, how & why it works on your parachute is something that jumpers should be well versed in prior to getting a license.

Taking personal responsibility to know your gear, understand & constantly practicing ALL your procedures is what separates a Skydiver from meat bomb.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Iago

A two out is a pretty unlikey scenario. If ou do have one it will most likely be due to a low pull with an AAD fir.

In that scenario you will be less than 500 feet from the ground and probably too busy to fuck with your RSL.

Unlikely, yes. However, I know of AT LEAST four people who have had them. Yes, all were low pulls with AADs. As you said... not likley time to even think of RSL.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[deadwood 0]

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, washed the car with it.

Many years ago when the Cypres first came out I made a ‘low” pull on my main, had my Cypres fire and got dual squares. Got them to a side by side and cut away the main without undoing the RSL. One riser left cleanly but the Velcro on the RSL side cause that riser to delay, trailing the main for just a second or two. When it finally released the riser and RSL was flung out with a lot of force and the RSL wrapped around one of my reserve suspension lines for just a moment. Everything finally cleared and I landed safely with a new understanding of how my Cypres worked in a low main pull situation.

So, if you have time I suggest you release the RSL as soon as possible after you have a dual square situation.

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

[ManagingPrime 0]

deadwood

So, if you have time I suggest you release the RSL as soon as possible after you have a dual square situation.

The "if you have time" part is what causes me some pause with the prescription to disconnect the RSL. I've never had a 2 out, but I've witnessed a good handful and they have all been at less than 1,000 with one happening in a busy pattern on the turn from downwind to base.

There is some great advice and a lot of experience giving it in this thread, but I have to wonder if this is good advice to be giving to newly minted jumpers considering the altitude at which most two out scenarios occur.

Is the time and attention given up to locate and disconnect the RSL shackle more of a hazard than the snag hazard presented by the RSL?

I should note, I'm referring only to single sided RSL's. The racer style double sided RSL has it's issues that should be well understood by anyone jumping rigs with that setup.

Outside of the double sided RSL has there ever been a fatality from a snag from a single sided RSL snagging the reserve on cutaway?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Is the time and attention given up to locate and disconnect the RSL shackle more of a hazard than the snag hazard presented by the RSL?

It shouldn't be...not if one actually trains himself mentally & physically to recognize & react. Remember you're not at freefall speed & that 1/2 second it takes to release it, might save your life. (altitude allowing of course)

My rig originally came with a shackle that was harder to operate than I liked so I changed it out for one that operated smoother and I could grab faster...

I don't always have the RSL connected - depending on what I'm doing...but when it is I drill for 10 minutes to get the muscle memory thing back in gear.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[diablopilot 2]

2 quick attempts and then forget it. It may add a bit more snag factor in the event of a breakaway as a response to a downplane. It is VERY likely that a 2 out is sub 1000 feet once developed (95% of the ones I've ever seen) so more important is problem resolution and active flying of the remaining parachute.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,379]

If you have time and can do it easily - disconnect it. If you can't, it increases your risk of entanglement by a small amount. Compare that to futzing around with it, which increases your risk of death a large amount.

The one exception is a Racer. If you have a Racer with a two sided RSL you MUST disconnect it before cutting away. There has been at least one fatality as a result of not disconnecting first.

[floormonkey 0]

At the most recent PIA, Jim Cowan of CPS gave a presentation about 2 out scenarios. He's probably done the most research on the subject then anyone else.

His opinion was that leaving the RSL connected affects cutaways/transfers minimally if at all, and that the shackle is not the problem, but the ring around the reserve ripcord. Most issues were caused with the older rigs with the 2-guide ring setup.

The majority of 2-out situations occur at a relatively low altitude, typically AAD firing altitude, which will be around 1000' AGL, +/- 250'. This leaves a minimum amount of time available to even assess whether your main canopy is entangled or potentially entangled with your reserve; remember, you need to trace the path of ALL 8 risers, plus d-bag and P/C, verifying 110% they are not entangled before you cutaway/transfer.

With the exception of the 2-out earlier this season that happened at deployment, total flight time for the ones I have witnessed (7) is about 2-3 minutes, with most being closer to 1 than 2 (descent rate depends on configuration). If you have a stable configuration above your head, your time is probably better spent finding a good landing area and preparing for a PLF rather than: looking for an RSL shackle, taking your hand(s) off your controls to disconnect (or trying to with toggles/gloves in the way), tracing your 8 risers and deployment system, looking for your cutaway handle, pulling your cutaway handle and then checking for a decent landing area, trying to get into the wind, and preparing for a PLF.

[chuckakers 369]

Quote

Racer has a double-sided RSL which consists of a lanyard from one riser to the other. If I have 2 canopies out, and one is in front of the other (forget which in front and which in back), then I must disconnect the RSL from at least one side before I cutaway or the departing main and RSL can choke off the reserve.

Might want to read EVERYTHING about your Racer on the Jump Shack website. Lack of knowledge can be fatal and your statement "forget which in front and which in back" demonstrates that your knowledge of this very important issue is lacking.

From the Jump Shack website:

"The potential for a Double-Sided RSL to lanyard choke the reserve risers can only occur when the main is in back of the reserve canopy and in front at the riser attachment. That would mean a deployment of the reserve occurred before the deployment of the main. You might not want to cutaway the main canopy even without an RSL in this situation because of the twisting of the main lift web and the involvement of the main and reserve risers and toggles with each other. Much of the variance in this scenario has to do with the amount and location of the twists of the lines, if any, on the main."

That said, it couldn't hurt to release the shackle regardless of the configuration of the canopies since releasing it wouldn't cause a problem but failing to release it could.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[JeffCa 0]

Thanks Chuck. I've been through the stuff on the Racer website. I intentionally did not want to think about this and go look it up again. Which is better, to not know and just equate 2-out with RSL release, or to think you understand which are safe and which are not, only to find out that you f'd it up under the pressure and got it backwards? I'd rather equate ALL 2-outs with RSL release, for my own safety. In short, lacking the knowledge and KNOWING I lack the knowledge could save me. Having the knowledge but making the wrong analysis under the pressure could kill me. But better yet would be to not have a 2-out.

As for the advice they included to possibly not cutaway, I was taught to only cut in a downplane, in which case I must cut to save my life.

The last sentence you wrote was exactly what I was thinking about this entire situation.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[chuckakers 369]

JeffCa

Thanks Chuck. I've been through the stuff on the Racer website. I intentionally did not want to think about this and go look it up again. Which is better, to not know and just equate 2-out with RSL release, or to think you understand which are safe and which are not, only to find out that you f'd it up under the pressure and got it backwards? I'd rather equate ALL 2-outs with RSL release, for my own safety. In short, lacking the knowledge and KNOWING I lack the knowledge could save me. Having the knowledge but making the wrong analysis under the pressure could kill me. But better yet would be to not have a 2-out.

As for the advice they included to possibly not cutaway, I was taught to only cut in a downplane, in which case I must cut to save my life.

The last sentence you wrote was exactly what I was thinking about this entire situation.

I think it's best to have ALL the knowledge, but still use the fool-proof method like the "release in any two-out situation" strategy you have.

This is much like the "cutaway or don't cutaway" decision for a pilot chute in tow or a horseshoe. There are so many possible pros and cons to either strategy that some folks take the decision dilemma out of it and just cutaway first regardless of the malfunction to save time and altitude.

Still, having the knowledge of the mechanics, the processes, and the potential results of any situation might make the difference if a scenario unfolds in an unexpected way - as they often do.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[JeffCa 0]

Chuck, funny you mention the pilot chute in tow issue. I received this advice from Nancy at Jump Shack when I asked about how the RSL could cause an issue if I cut a total then the main came out anyway (see, I do think about stuff ):

In the event of a total malfunction (the main is in the container), you should not cut away. Firstly, cutting away would be a waste of precious time. Pull the reserve ripcord and get a canopy over your head. Then disconnect the RSL just in case you need to get rid of the main. Second, you want to prevent the RSL from getting beyond your reach if the main canopy does open while your reserve is deploying.

So it sounds like cutting away in the event of a total is potentially dangerous if the main is going to come out eventually.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[Southern_Man 0]

chuckakers

I think it's best to have ALL the knowledge, but still use the fool-proof method like the "release in any two-out situation" strategy you have.

Actually to make it even more foolproof you should, according to jumpshack, disconnect the RSL any time you have a good canopy over your head.

Seems if people did this it would eliminate any issues with fumbling to disconnect the shackle.

I don't know anybody who jumps a racer with a double sided RSL, so I don't know if people actually do this or not.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[nigel99 143]

billvon

If you have time and can do it easily - disconnect it. If you can't, it increases your risk of entanglement by a small amount. Compare that to futzing around with it, which increases your risk of death a large amount.

The one exception is a Racer. If you have a Racer with a two sided RSL you MUST disconnect it before cutting away. There has been at least one fatality as a result of not disconnecting first.

Our TIs all disconnect the rsl prior to landing in case of needing to chop. One of the most experienced guys disconnects it at about 500 ft, but he uses his teeth. As he pointed out the tag is right there and no need to take your hands off the controls. Just another potential plan you could have.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[chuckakers 369]

Southern_Man

***

I think it's best to have ALL the knowledge, but still use the fool-proof method like the "release in any two-out situation" strategy you have.

Actually to make it even more foolproof you should, according to jumpshack, disconnect the RSL any time you have a good canopy over your head.

Seems if people did this it would eliminate any issues with fumbling to disconnect the shackle.

I don't know anybody who jumps a racer with a double sided RSL, so I don't know if people actually do this or not.

That is potentially very deadly logic.

My guess is - though John Sherman would probably deny it - that Jump Shack encourages the disconnection of the RSL on every jump more as a statement to protect against liability than anything else.

An RSL should not be disconnected as a way to avoid a situation that has not happened and likely won't. Besides, having the reserve deploy with the RSL connected isn't a problem anyway. Only cutting away without disconnecting it (potentially) is.

Keeping it connected is essential in case of a malfunction after the deployment of a clean canopy. Historically there have been many canopy collapses, turn or turbulance-induced line twists, canopy damage from collisions, etc. in which an RSL could have or did make the difference between a reserve repack and death. Having a good canopy at deployment in no way insures it will stay good. Jumpers should keep every piece of safety equipment at the ready in case something goes awry on the trip down - especially any device that minimizes the altitude necessary to get a reserve out in a low altitude emergency.

If a reserve doesn't deploy before, during, or shortly after main deployment (most typically because of an AAD activation), the odds of it coming out thereafter are miniscule at best. It makes no sense to disconnect the RSL to guard against a highly improbable scenario when doing so also removes it from possible and much more likely scenarios in which it might make all the difference in the outcome of the jump.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX