Cessna J/M position in plane

[riggerrob 558]

I know that USPA doctrine (September 2003 Parachutist Magazine) says that static-line and IAD instructors should kneel behind the student in Cessnas, facing the front of the airplane.
However, CSPA doctrine says that instructors should kneel in front of their students, with their backs against the instrument panel.

I have worked with both systems and am far more comfortable facing my students.

The problem is that no one has ever explained to me "why" American instructors like to be behind their students.
And you had better come up with a better explanation than "we have always done it that way."
Call it a learning disability on my part, but "traditional" explanations baffle me.

[Blahr 0]

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And you had better come up with a better explanation than "we have always done it that way."

Why? You gonna tell on them if they dont?

[Skream 0]

I'm not sure about the wording here. I'm in the US and my instructor was 'behind me' in the plane, but we were facing each other. I think behind the student doesn't mean his front to my back, but behind as in further back in the plane.

In this position, after door, I would just swing my legs out and grab onto the strut.

Is this just a wording issue? I know there's other confusing wording in some USPA text, as one fellow discovered at our DZ in the 2004 SIM this past weekend (it says in a high wind landing to pull one toggle down hard, and how it's worded it appears to mean before touchdown. How nice, it teaches you to hook into the ground)

---
Michael Teator
Lexington, Kentucky

[AggieDave 6]

This is my view of it, but I don't have a SL/IAD rating.


IIRC its better for controling the static line laynard attatched to the plane. In the "American position" its easier to control the line and feed the line out as the student climbs out. Especially true when climbing out on the step (well, mostly on the step) to do a proper IAD exit. It keeps the JM from having to climb and turn while controling a PC.

Also, it keeps the student from having to climb over his JM to get out on the strut.


That's my view of it, but I don't have a SL/IAD rating.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[chuteless 1]

I always liked my back to the instrument dashboard.

It always worked best for me, but I scared the blazes out of 1 pilot that way.

We were flying in a Cessna 337, two engines, one pulling the other pushing.
Came time for the jump, I leaned back to let the other jumper get out, and put the plane ina steep...very steep dive. The pilot was screaming " we're going to crash". I wasnt worried, ...I had a chute. I had driven the control column in as far as it would go.

The jumper left, I followed, and there was never a pilot so glad to get rid of two jumpers. I laughed for a week....the pilot didnt see an humor in it at all. LOL LOL

[tombuch 0]

For a Cessna 180/182:

I like to put the first student against the instrument panel facing the tail of the airplane, then I use the position right in front of him (next to the pilot). The additional students (2 in a 182) are behind me in the back of the airplane.

This set-up gives me direct control of the first student to exit, and blocks access to the door for the next two. It allows me to deal with one student at a time. After dispatching the first student I can stow the SL then turn to the next student and move him into position.

Do I like having the second two students out of my direct sight while I'm working with the first? No, but that position gives me greater control of all three, especially as the later students are moved forward. I am also always in a position where with a tiny bit of effort I can look directly at any one of the students, and I can reach them all easily.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[FrogNog 1]

With me when I was on SL, and watching some SL students I have ridden with later, the JM has always been back-to-the-instruments, up front. He can open the door and spot easily from this position (on knees) with up to three nervous SL students on their butts in the back of the plane. When it's almost time, the closest student scoots up and sticks his feet on the step but stays sitting; on the SLs and sometimes the first few short delay jumps, the JM can reach across the door with his arm in front of the student to be clear that it isn't time for them to climb out yet. Course adjustment hand signals to the pilot with his other arm are right up there.

Maybe this just works because our JMs are really skinny. :)

In the 182s, I can't think how else the JM could "service" three SL students without sitting up by the dash; the students would have to crawl over him or squeeze around him (after the first) any other way. Maybe I'm not thinking creatively enough, but with 4 people in the 182 there's barely room to breathe.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[murrays 0]

Being Canadian, I've only ever JM'd from in front of the student.

I have attached a photo showing a mod we have on our student rigs to make it easier to get the pilot chute ready for an IAD, and showing how we control students during climbout.

It is a pocket on the left side of the main container that the pilot chute is stored in until you get the student ready for exit. It is easy to remove the p/c and adjust the amount of free bridle so that you have a bit of slack while holding the side adjuster and the pilot chute. Having a grip on the harness helps you control and assist the student during climbout. As they clear the door, you just slide your left hand onto the strut, put your foot(feet) on the step and slide out beside them while they hang.

I keep my hand on their harness until they are out hanging. Then I just keep my grip on the p/c and hold the p/c close to the rig. I tell them to go and toss the pilot chute down when they let go of the strut and start falling away.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[nightjumps 1]

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In the "American position" its easier to control the line and feed the line out as the student climbs out. Especially true when climbing out on the step (well, mostly on the step) to do a proper IAD exit. It keeps the JM from having to climb and turn while controling a PC. That's my view of it, but I don't have a SL/IAD rating.

That's exactly why, Dave.

[ripcords 0]

By having the IAD student in front of you, facing forward, the jumpmaster has
1) easy access to the pilot chute without any need for a modification to the rig.
2) Communication with the student is very easy because you are right by their ears.
3) The student does not have to turn to get out or climb past the jm, thus reducing the risk of them snagging anything on the pilots seat.
4) The jumpmaster can have their left hand on the student's left shoulder of the rig and their right hand on the student's pilot chute.
5) Getting the student up on their knees prior to exit allows them to see out of the airplane early and be more comfortable with the flight plan. They also get involved in the spotting process earlier then when situated the other way.

Here is my question. So why do most Cessna jump planes have all of that wonderful space under the dash board on the copilot's side blocked off and have the person sitting backwards anyhow? Don't tell me weight and balance, because with my feet under the dash, my rear is pretty much the same place as it would be if I was sitting backwards. Are those pilots afraid that we will play with their pedals?

[bch7773 0]

Our S/L instructors have always been on their knees facing the student, with the student's back against the dashboard. The JM can spot good, can help student out the door, and can watch them let go and deploy.
Just a guess, but from reading the others posts, it sounds like maybe just the IAD instructors sit with their backs to the dashboard.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Tonto 1]

What Cessna?

Positions may be very different between C172, C182, C185, C206, C207 and C210, particularly if the cargo door is being used.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Im not a JM, but Ive seen them:). JMs are doing IAD in our club. If we have just one JM with C206 he is in front of the student, if there to one in front and the other is behind.

[crutch 0]

I have done it both ways. I prefer what you call the "Canadian" method, jumpmaster to with his/her back to the dash. If you ask some pilots, even they perfer this as it keeps the weight forward, especially when you have to reposition everyone for the second student. The other reason is that I can see everyone in the plane when my back is to the dash.

As a footnote, we have changed our AFF exits from the cessnas to reflect this somewhat. The Main side jumpmaster sits with his back to the dash. It makes it much easier for the reserve side JM to get and maintain a grip during the climbout and it also lessens the chance of any thing getting snagged during climbout.

blue skies,

art

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

All my students: AFF, SL, whatever, when riding in a Cessna sit with their backs to the panel. I kneel between their legs, just like you do.


Chuck

[Fast 0]

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Here is my question. So why do most Cessna jump planes have all of that wonderful space under the dash board on the copilot's side blocked off and have the person sitting backwards anyhow? Don't tell me weight and balance, because with my feet under the dash, my rear is pretty much the same place as it would be if I was sitting backwards. Are those pilots afraid that we will play with their pedals?

I can't say I know why, but I can say that sitting facing forward has seemed more comfortable to me. The cessna that I jump does not have the pannel that you lean on. We sit with the student and JM positions back to back. You use the other jumper as your backrest. Don't have to worry about your back/head hitting the control stuff and I find it to be more comfortable (Yes I have jumped cessnas both ways.)

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[ripcords 0]

We also have our main side jumpmasters in front of the student which is definitely easier for the reserve side jumpmaster to have both grips right from the start. Using predominantly a C-185 and C-180, the climbout is easier on the main side jumpmaster if he/she is facing forward rather than toward the rear of the aircraft.

[wingnut 0]

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Are those pilots afraid that we will play with their pedals?

yup!!!!! just like you will notice that most cessna jump plnes have the right seat yoke removed and even mostly the whole shaft.... no way to mess with the flight controls if it isn't there/ acessable... only time you find the yoke and shaft on the right seat at my dz is when they do check rides for new pilots.....

______________________________________
"i have no reader's digest version"

[czechbase 0]

Here in Malaysia the jumpmasters are always behind the students when doing static line.

www.motavi.com

[DutchSkyCam 0]

Asuming a C-182 here, since procedures on 182 and 205, 206, 207 differ...

I jumpmastered students in the states and I was ALWAYS facing the student...
In the Netherlands I am a SL jumpmaster and I always face my students (C-182 and C-206)
I'm sitting next to the pilot facing rear, the students are facing rear as well, but they turn about 2 minutes before jumprun and sit on their knees
On first jumps: 1 Student on each run, later on 2 or even 3...

If you would be sitting behind the student, these are the factors that come in my mind...

1) How do you "guide" a (nervous?) student out the door?
2) How would you drop 3 students? Do they have to crawl past you after the previous student jumped?
3) Would you let a (careless) student near the pilot controls (throttle, flaps, mixture or even the closed door)?
4) How is the student gonna look into the JM's eyes... (and the JM in the students eyes)
5) Jumpmaster has to really look out for the static line, no (left) arm on the ground... (OK, this can be overcome)

Am I getting it right that USPA mandates this procedure?

Sorry, Just confused,

Barry.

[nitecap 0]

Attached photo from late sixties.Taken at Abbotsford BC.JM back to dash.

[jaaska 0]

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Asuming a C-182 here, since procedures on 182 and 205, 206, 207 differ...

I jumpmastered students in the states and I was ALWAYS facing the student...
In the Netherlands I am a SL jumpmaster and I always face my students (C-182 and C-206)
I'm sitting next to the pilot facing rear, the students are facing rear as well, but they turn about 2 minutes before jumprun and sit on their knees
On first jumps: 1 Student on each run, later on 2 or even 3...

If you would be sitting behind the student, these are the factors that come in my mind...

1) How do you "guide" a (nervous?) student out the door?
2) How would you drop 3 students? Do they have to crawl past you after the previous student jumped?
3) Would you let a (careless) student near the pilot controls (throttle, flaps, mixture or even the closed door)?
4) How is the student gonna look into the JM's eyes... (and the JM in the students eyes)
5) Jumpmaster has to really look out for the static line, no (left) arm on the ground... (OK, this can be overcome)

Am I getting it right that USPA mandates this procedure?

Sorry, Just confused,

Barry.

If you have a cargo-door C-206, it is probably easier for the JM to be "behind" the student rather than in front of him - although I have seen both type seatings. The JM sits at the very back of the plane and since the cargo-door is right there, s/he just prepares one student at a time and places them sitting at the door. Off they gooooouuu....

[howardwhite 3]

I hope everyone who favors the American position (as I do) does not kneel in front of the student on takeoff. I have a friend who is in a wheelchair for life because he was kneeling when the Cessna crashed.

Sit facing the rear with seat belt on until whatever altitude, then unbelt and turn around to face the student.

HW