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thrillseek

Swoopers, LAND OUT

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Something that hasn't really been brought up yet, is that if you're a swooper, you don't always have to swoop. I know you want to, I know you enjoy it (I sure as hell do), but if its going to cause problems with other jumpers, then its not really an option. Suck it up and land straight in.

I think that when folks get in the "I've got to swoop" mentality, they may put themselves in situations where they really shouldn't. Such as in heavy traffic, etc.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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i've been coming in for final before with 90% of the rw jumpers that were on the same load as i was standing around "high fiving" each other and looking at video. this is nothing more than cutting off the canopy landing area, which is already tight at some DZ's.



I think this is where the idea of a high-performance landing area comes from...but again, who gets which area in our case? And how do you keep from pissing people off...

...incidentally, the two DZs around here that forcibly banned HP landings lost jumpers because of it...hell, we've lost jumpers because they landed first, set the wrong pattern, ground in the people behind them and got pissed and walked off when we confronted them about it (I was there, it was all done very professionally...adults just don't want to be told they're wrong). So what do you do? You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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>What about when a seperate landing area is not an option?

Then they swoop ONLY when the area is completely clear. That might mean pulling high and waiting until everyone else lands; it might mean a second pass or even a separate load. Safety outweighs convenience, I think.

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Something that hasn't really been brought up yet, is that if you're a swooper, you don't always have to swoop. I know you want to, I know you enjoy it (I sure as hell do), but if its going to cause problems with other jumpers, then its not really an option. Suck it up and land straight in.



Two of my four landings last weekend in Sebastian were aborted swoops because I felt I would be cutting someone off if I did a 270 and then my other two landings were 270s because traffic wasn't an issue.

But it still seems like we're being painted as evil irresponsible people in this thread. :S


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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Then they swoop ONLY when the area is completely clear. That might mean pulling high and waiting until everyone else lands; it might mean a second pass or even a separate load. Safety outweighs convenience, I think.



How 'bout we try this... shoot an accuracy approach ONLY when the area is completely clear. That might mean pulling high and waiting until everyone else lands; it might mean a second pass or even a separate load. Safety outweighs convenience, I think.

There, I think that works nicely...

On both sides of the issue, you have to know when to say when... everybody is responsible for not doing stupid shit in the landing area, HP pilots, LP pilots, and everybody in between.

J





All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

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>What about when a seperate landing area is not an option?

Then they swoop ONLY when the area is completely clear. That might mean pulling high and waiting until everyone else lands; it might mean a second pass or even a separate load. Safety outweighs convenience, I think.



I couldn't agree more, but do you start changing around your exit order to accommodate this??? What about the freefall problems you run into then? And what about the guy under the Manta loaded at .75? How do the guys loaded at 2.2 stay above him??

I don't think you're idea of a second pass is going to fly with many DZs either. It costs money and time to keep airplanes up...not to mention lost loads. In an ideal world, yes, this would certainly help...but I don't think you're going to see that idea catch hold at most DZs.

A second load? What about at DZs that only have enough folks around to fly one or two loads at a time...you shut down the whole DZ because you can't put the HPs on the same load as the conservatives?? Don't think that will fly...

There's no easy answer. Personal responsibility and the notion that you don't have the "right" to swoop on every landing goes a long way to help, but it's not the end-all-be-all answer...I'm not sure what is.


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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>I couldn't agree more, but do you start changing around your exit
> order to accommodate this???

Yeah, as you would if anyone wants to pull high.

>And what about the guy under the Manta loaded at .75? How do the
>guys loaded at 2.2 stay above him??

There are half a dozen problems you can have with this scheme. If any of them are insurmountable, the fix is easy - do no more than a 90 degree swoop so you can stay with the landing pattern. Not every kind of activity in skydiving is compatible with every other; sometimes you can't do that 270 degree swoop because you just don't have the airspace to do it.

>Personal responsibility and the notion that you don't have the "right"
> to swoop on every landing goes a long way to help, but it's not the
> end-all-be-all answer...I'm not sure what is.

There's no one answer, no set of rules that will accomodate everyone. I think the concept that a 270 swoop is an activity that's dangerous to others, and can only be attempted when the area is completely clear, can help a lot. At some point common sense has to fill in the gaps in any guideline or rule.

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Every DZ should have an alternate landing area for either swoopers, or conservatives.




So, if you're going to have two landing areas, here's the question: Who gets the close, right across the street, no-walk landing area???

Do you give it to the swoopers because it has a special taxi way and the other hazards that experienced jumpers can more easily handle, while sending the more conservative jumpers down the road to the bigger wide open field (with a walk)? OR Do you give it to the conservative pilots because swoopers don't "have" to swoop, so why should the conservative pilots have to walk because they don't want to hook?

Because of a few near misses, we've been fighting over this for about 3 years now. And no one can seem to figure out a compromise.

I bring this up because we have the room to make an alternate field, but we still haven't done it. So, what do we do? Not wanting to alienate customers is a bitch, isn't it? :S



I've argued this also. I am all for 2 seperate landing area's, especially if someone is going to land downwind. The majority if not all the local swoopers are very considerate at our dz and either land first or last, unless there is a window of opportunity to land without hindering someone else.

I don't like the swoopers going over building and especially over people, but that seems unstoppable.

Its hard to tell a jumpers to follow the landing person of the first person that lands if they land down wind.

People should be happy to walk back from any skydive. If they can't handle the walk, they certainly don't need to skydive.

And a solution to who has to walk the furthest, alternate. Saturday, the conservatives get the closer landing are and Sunday the conservatives get the further landing area. For 7 day a week dz's. work it out.

Just my 2 cents.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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And a solution to who has to walk the furthest, alternate. Saturday, the conservatives get the closer landing are and Sunday the conservatives get the further landing area. For 7 day a week dz's. work it out.



I like that, and it's something I hadn't thought of. Of course, the obvious problem is how to make sure everyone (especially those who haven't been around for a while or are out-of-towners) knows what LZ they are at. I can see the calamity forming now. I'm not sure skydivers are smart enough to handle this! :P


"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

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I'm not sure skydivers are smart enough to handle this! :P



I know what you mean cause they/we can't manage to fly a left hand pattern consistantly, why would they/we be able to remember what landing area to go to. :D:D

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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I'm not sure skydivers are smart enough to handle this!



Hell, half the time jumpers can't even follow the landing direction set by the first jumper down in main landing areas.:S



Dave, remember you are a skydiver too. We all seem to flake out at some point. Just most of do it on the ground.:D

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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That is for sure! The problem is the persistantly screwed up jumpers. Especially the ones with enough experience and jumps to know better, but shrug off certain things simply because they think they can/that they're better then everyone else.

That'd be a problem with switching LZs back and forth as well... "I'm old, so I'm always going to land close, its hard on my knees to walk the extra 200 ft"
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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>And a solution to who has to walk the furthest, alternate. Saturday,
> the conservatives get the closer landing are and Sunday the
> conservatives get the further landing area.

As many skydivers are hard pressed to remember even which way the default landing direction is, I don't think that would work. "What? The swoopers had it last week! I saw one guy swoop last week . . ."

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>And a solution to who has to walk the furthest, alternate. Saturday,
> the conservatives get the closer landing are and Sunday the
> conservatives get the further landing area.

As many skydivers are hard pressed to remember even which way the default landing direction is, I don't think that would work. "What? The swoopers had it last week! I saw one guy swoop last week . . ."



Oh, I know. Because then we have to decided what is a swoop and what isn't. I don't consider any of my landings swoops but someon else might.

Judy
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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At my DZ, the biggest, baddest swoopers all tend to be DZ staff. Indeed virtually all the good swoopers are staff... including the DZO's.

It's pretty unlikely the DZ will make their staff walk farther, resulting in fewer paid jumps each day.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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Nah. I'm going to land where I feel like (in a swoop course if it's there because that's fun, probably in the pea pit if not because it makes a nice swoop accuracy target and usually isn't a long walk) into the wind or agreed upon direction, dump at an appropriate altitude and fly in brakes so I can find uncongested airspace for my approach when most other people are playing nice, make a predictable carving 90 if people are somewhat close or I'm the first one down and setting the pattern, and bail on my swoop if too many schmucks spiral down to the same altitude. If I feel like landing down-wind I'll do it outside the main landing area if I didn't exit on a separate swooper's low pass.

I fly a 105. If you're flying a big canopy and there aren't too many groups after you and before me, I am going to pass you. If you spiraled down beneath me, that's less likely to happen at 2000 feet and more likely to be while you're on final approach or even planed out. I'm not going to run into you and am not going to fly so that you end up in my wake. I'm also not uncomfortable being within 50' of you especially at low speeds inches off the ground, and consider any mistakes you make while distracted to be your problem.

Personally, I worry more about people s-turning through the pattern and having tunnel vision than I do swoopers.

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Nah. I'm going to land where I feel like (in a swoop course if it's there because that's fun, probably in the pea pit if not because it makes a nice swoop accuracy target and usually isn't a long walk) into the wind or agreed upon direction, dump at an appropriate altitude and fly in brakes so I can find uncongested airspace for my approach when most other people are playing nice, make a predictable carving 90 if people are somewhat close or I'm the first one down and setting the pattern, and bail on my swoop if too many schmucks spiral down to the same altitude. If I feel like landing down-wind I'll do it outside the main landing area if I didn't exit on a separate swooper's low pass.

I fly a 105. If you're flying a big canopy and there aren't too many groups after you and before me, I am going to pass you. If you spiraled down beneath me, that's less likely to happen at 2000 feet and more likely to be while you're on final approach or even planed out. I'm not going to run into you and am not going to fly so that you end up in my wake. I'm also not uncomfortable being within 50' of you especially at low speeds inches off the ground, and consider any mistakes you make while distracted to be your problem.

Personally, I worry more about people s-turning through the pattern and having tunnel vision than I do swoopers.



LOL ... I can totally picture Drew (and the various tones in his voice he'd use) saying this to someone (with a beer in his hand) at the end of the day. :ph34r:


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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May a gray-bearded, grumpy old-school accuracy competitor interject here?
It is very simple: only the first guy down and the last guy down get a clear shot at the disc, er swooping course.
Everyone else has to fly predictable patterns that do not endanger other lives.
Young guys - under tiny canopies - should exit first, pull around 2,000 and sprial like crazy if they want the first shot at the disc, er swooping course.
If any hot-shots find themselves in the middle of the pack, they should slide off to the side and sit in half-brakes until everyone else has landed, then they get the last shot at the disc, er swooping course.

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I'd say it's about time for people to start taking more responsibility for the lives of their peers.


You are going to make a good democrat someday.

How about lobbying for a law as such.

Yes I am being a bit cocky, but we need to be responsible for ourselves first. It is up to the DZ whether they want an HP area or not. Remember, those who are not comfortable or aware enough to know what is going on can land farther out.

We need awareness, not more rules. People don't follow the rules we have, so the answer is not to establish more.
People need to stop coming out of the sky like they're the only @*&3ers on earth!

I'm really glad I've got eyes.
Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

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