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bigG

To CutAway or not?!?

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Those winds were crazy!


Actual mistake #1 maybe, in the chain / sequence of events??

Remember, skydiving is a voluntary activity. Sometimes it is best to "volunteer" to sit it out, and instead c'mon back & do it all on ANOTHER DAY!

Glad this did not turn out potentially even worse.

Let's see.... risk losing my main, or my life ...my main, or my life ...(??) ---Cha-ching! ;)
You did the right thing under the circumstances. But from what I've seen since "hinted at" throughout the thread as well otherwise (ie: more than just minor "wind issues") maybe the real right thing may have been NOT to have put yourself into exposure for those circumstances in the first place?

Blue Skies,
-Grant
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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On the $$ for the lost canopy / free bag - you can get them insured through your homeowners insurance. (Not sure about renters insurance, but probably).



It's called personal property coverage. And yes, it is available as a component to your "renters policy too". You do not necessarily have to (nor would I necessarily advise) directly mentioning that it is a skydiving CANOPY that you are looking at specifically insuring. I also know of someone who did this, only to later receive a little addendum/rider notice (2-sentence slip of paper in the mail) making an EXCLUSION as to any skydiving equipment from then on!

Do I happen to work for an insurance company???
---Oops, I just really can't say! ;)

-Grant
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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I don't think one should consider the costs as part of an EP decision.
However, in the case of the jump you described, you probably could have landed the main. The wind, turbulence, etc. were just as much of a factor to a good reserve landing as for landing the main.
The main thing to consider, I think, is that if the main is landable, why chop it for an unopened reserve ? True, reserves rarely malfunction, but the main is already open and flying. There is some extra risk, even if it is small. So why do it ?

As always, I advise:
Please get all of your Emergency Procedure advise from your instructor, not some moron on the internet.

kevin k
======================
Seasons don't fear the Reaper,
nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain...

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I'll never understand why people cast judgment on what another jumper does during a malfunction. Those people weren't in that situation and how dare they make you feel like you made the wrong decision. You walked away, and you're alive. That's all that matters.



I'm not sure if I am allowed to call you a twit for that statement. If not, then I'll say I disagree. Surely you must agree that someone can do a lot of wrong things in an emergency and still survive due to lucky circumstances. Does that mean they did everything right ?? Of course not ! It means they got lucky. If they did all of those things in enough situations, sooner or later they will not be so lucky.

The idea is to get better at what we do. EP execution is something that we do, just as much as RW docks, head down turns, or landing swoops. Having people point out things that can be improved makes us better (if we listen to them). I can't think of anything more worthwhile to be better at than handling of emergencies.

Someone may think that since they survived a problem, they're OK and nothing will happen again for a while. (Believe me, some people think this)
Remember that it could happen again on the very next jump.

Study the emergency responses of others and cast judgement upon them. Use these observations to learn from. You cannot survive making all of the mistakes yourself.

kevin k.
======================
Seasons don't fear the Reaper,
nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain...

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Okay, let me repeat myself, which I tried to make clear in my post to Bill.
I was trying to say, when someone does everything right, and they land and walk away, why does it seem there are always people standing there doing the "you should have".
Clear?

BTW, I don't think I'm a twit. I consider myself a very experienced jumper with lots of background and knowledge of the sport. Now, again, I could be wrong, but I don't think you'll find many people that think I'm a twit.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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--------------------------------------------------------
I would like to know what you all think about this.
G.
--------------------------------------------------------

Sheesh ... anything for an excuse to buy a new main.

So, whatcha getting? ;)

.

"exit fast, fly smooth, dock soft and smile"
'nother james

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Having re-read your response to Bill v., I understand your point. My "twit" comment was misplaced, and I appologize.

Second guessing the person who is in the harness is not really right. When someone arrives on the ground safe or even injured, that is not the time to berate them about some real or imagined mistake.

I guess what I meant is that we should try to learn what can go wrong in dealing with an emergancy, and try to improve. If, in the opinion of competent folks, someone handles an emergency poorly, they should be told about it at the proper time and place so that they may improve their reactions in the future.

kevin k.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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Those winds were crazy!


Actual mistake #1 maybe, in the chain / sequence of events??



I don't have a problems landing in those winds under a perfectly controllable canopy. Actually my landing with the reserve was kinda sweet...IMHO.

The question was with a broken steering line do I want to try landing the main with rear risers which I have not tried before and I decided this was not the time to find out if I can or can not....

I don't know may be I could have..may be not...thats why like I said before the odds were 50/50.

The only problems with the wind was anything you chop will not land anywhere near the DZ...

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(ie: more than just minor "wind issues") maybe the real right thing may have been NOT to have put yourself into exposure for those circumstances in the first place?



Again if this would have happened on a "better" wind day..I would still be in the same situation...Do I try something I have not tried before or why take the chance to find out other wise.....

The only +side of low winds would have been my main would have landed on or close to the DZ..

But I see you point as well...

P.S. I will get the insurance on my rig so in future I won't waste a sec thinking about the $ consequences.

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I was trying to say, when someone does everything right, and they land and walk away, why does it seem there are always people standing there doing the "you should have".
Clear?



I perfectly understand what flyangel is talking about. Any positive feed-back is always welcomed..I am always looking to learn...

But sometime some remarks just dont make any sense, sometimes its just a senseless remark which does not really help. What do ya say to them?

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BTW, I don't think I'm a twit.

I don't think she is one.
I understand what she is talking about...the senseless smart ass remarks which don't help any one.

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>I was trying to say, when someone does everything right, and they
> land and walk away, why does it seem there are always people
> standing there doing the "you should have".

I think that's human nature. I do the same thing, although I usually phrase it "I would have . . ." It's how a lot of informal education gets done on drop zones. There are a lot of aspects of skydiving that people argue about - RSL's, cutting away from a PC in tow, and collision avoidance, to name just a few. I think people are better off hearing what other people would have done. They can always ignore the advice.

>I don't think I'm a twit.

I don't either, and I've seen you teach people about RW at Tent 4 - so you do the same thing to a degree.

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>I don't think I'm a twit.

I don't either, and I've seen you teach people about RW at Tent 4 - so you do the same thing to a degree.



Don't you think that people that are coming to the tent for a LO are asking for advise?
I can't ever remember offering advise till it's asked for.
Not to worry Bill, I still love ya ;)
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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Last year, at Rantoul...No shit, there i was...on my fir$t birdman jump...all was well until i deployed and actually felt the steering line break during deployment...very odd experience. Anyway, I did a quick check on the rest of the canopy (eliptical, loaded at 1.6), found it to be ok, and LEANED with all i was worth to correct the induced turn while i unzipped my suit. Once that was all done, I looked down and saw the traffic had made me a perfect hole to go through to get to the tandem landing area. Looking at the alti-2 i saw my hard deck (1300') approaching. I made my choice. I was going to land it with the rears. So, leaning seemingly half out of my harness, i flew that thing across the field and landed it safely with risers. At this point i think i had 190 jumps.

I'll just say this:
Everyone should be able to land a canopy with risers, just as we would hope that your pilot can land the plane with no gear if needs be. Give it a little time up high to decide, make your decision and stick with it. No sense in thinking "should'ves" at 800 ft.

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I'll just say this:
Everyone should be able to land a canopy with risers, ..............



Right...how do I learn to land a canopy loaded at 1.4 with the rear risers?

Somebody please let me know whats that best way to proceed towards this....


G.

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Yet, the other jumpers tell them, "you should have" or "I would have." IMO, if the jumper had a successful cut away and landing, they did every thing okay.



I disagree. If a jumper screws up badly, but gets out of it because she's lucky, telling that jumper she did the right thing only encourages her to do that wrong action again, at which point she might not be so lucky. Likewise, if a jumper screws up only mildly, there is still no benefit to positive reinforcement of poor choices.

I'm reminded of one individual who cuttaway his "slider down" malfunction. He saw what he thought was a problem, and dealt with it. In reality though, he did not do the right thing, because in reality there was no problem to start with. Strangely, even after cutting away a perfectly good canopy, people told him "you did the right thing", which seems patently false to me. I can't imagine what went through his head when his reserve opened, and on that one too the slider came down too.

That said, people who offer advice should be sure that they have standing to offer that advice, and they should do it at an appropriate time and place. These forums are an ideal time and place, I think.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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Ugh :S

How many times do I have to say this. I'm talking about someone that has done everything right, landed safe and walked away. There always seems to be someone standing around and tells the person "Will, if it were me I would have..........." That is what I'm trying to say.
It seems no matter what a person does in an emergency situation, there is always someone there to say that they did something wrong.
Am I clear now?
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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The question was with a broken steering line do I want to try landing the main with rear risers which I have not tried before and I decided this was not the time to find out if I can or can not....



Well, that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? You had never landed a canopy on just rear risers before...and I don't think this would have been a good time to find out whether you could or not. The winds were funky, and it was turbulent(I was there - the guy that talked to you just after you geared up, and tried to chase your main after you chopped). At least if you try to land your canopy on rears after a normal opening, you still have toggles available(and in your hands) to bail out to those if the landing goes bad with rears.

Would I have landed it with rears? Yep....but I've done it quite a few times, so I'm comfortable with it. Losing a main, freebag, handles, etc. should never come into the decision making process.

You also commented about following the main down....well, IMNSHO, you would've been incredibly stupid(and quite possible injured or dead) if you had attempted to do so. The general area it came down in is mostly trees, with maybe some small clearings. Everything may have been cool right up until you descended below the tree line and caught the rotors off the trees that can easily collapse your canopy.

I guess there was no luck with the guy that went out looking for your canopy the next day, huh?

Mike

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Its also not about the money..its that lately some people have been giving me their opinion. You know the type, "If I were you I would..........." and thats giving rise to these doubts in my mind.



What flyangel2 said.

As for the cost of gear coming into the equation, that doesn't factor in my decision making. If i can't land my main, it's going whether i ever see it again or not. Life is more precious to me than whatever the financial costs involved in chopping gear and damaging demo equipment may be.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

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