0
bigG

To CutAway or not?!?

Recommended Posts

Last weekend, I had my first CutAway. I was trying out a Wing Suit on this jump. The jump went as per plan, I deployed..no problems. Then I spent some time un-zipping the wings and when I went to un-stow the toggles..my right steering line broke and wrapped around some other lines and started a turn.
I took a few sec to think about trying to land with rear risers and decided against it due to several factor..(extremely windy conditions, turbulence, etc.) and chopped my main and landed my reserve safely.

Due to the high winds that day, I lost my main and reserve free bag and P/chute. [:/]

Now after adding up the cost of replacing my main & reserve p/chute, I am starting to question my decision to chop.

Should one consider the fact that you could loose your main & reserve p/chute while chopping? If yes, then that would have changed my decision completely.

I would like to know what you all think about this.

G.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First, it is best to decide what you would do BEFORE you get into a situation.

Second, the cost of a reserve re-pack, and the risk of gear should not be a factor when deciding to cutaway. It should simply not enter in the process.

Life-flight helicopter pilots are not told the severity of the injury. This is because they may go ahead with a flight they normally wouldn't based on the knowledge that if they don't the patient will die. This risks the pilot, the flight nurses, and the helicopter.

Derek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wouldn't.

Well, maybe in the back of my head... Heh heh my last chop is on video. After I'm under my reserve you can clearly hear me call something :$ This was related to the costs (in this case, repack only, my gear is insured besides I didn't lose anything).

But, my life is worth more then my main and handles! And then some...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just to add something to my previous post:

I understand if the main is un-land-able..then you don't have a choice. But what if there is a 50-50 chance of trying to land it?

I knew I could have attempted to land it but i though I could end up hurting myself on landing or could have screwed up the borrowed wing suit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If there is any doubt that it is landable cut it away. Better to loose your gear than your life. Also if you have renters/homeowners insurance it may cover it. A friend of mine lost a main worth about $350.00 he received a check for $1800.00 from his insurance company or a replacement.
Mals generally get worse not better. I made the mistake of trying to land a tandem with tention knotts on the right side, what was a slow turn to the right at 5000 AGL turned into a hard spriral turn to the right(without correcting with left toggle) at 1000 AGL.
Kirk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I understand if the main is un-land-able..then you don't have a choice. But what if there is a 50-50 chance of trying to land it?



If you are not 100% sure you can land your main, cutaway and pull your reserve. 50/50 is bad odds when you have a rigger inspected and packed reserve on your back. You would feel really dumb landing a questionable main with a good reserve still available.

Derek

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey...Im glad you made a choice and it turned out OK.

Just my tuppence...cause Im not experienced enough to give you it from experience.

What you just posted I think is contrary to just about everything I have heard or read....you should never consider the cost of replacing equipment in your EP's.

if YOU thought you couldnt land it in those conditions...then 'maybe' loosing your main and PC should not even enter the equation......If your not happy with what you got....thats your own personal call...and you dont wanna get cloudy thinking about the cost of a main that you 'might' not find again.

How much will it cost you to break your legs and fracture your vertebrae ....?? I'll wager a bit more than the cost of another main canopy ...;)

Good to hear your OK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>I understand if the main is un-land-able..then you don't have a
>choice. But what if there is a 50-50 chance of trying to land it?

You'd take a 50% chance on a major injury to save $1000? Many skydivers spend $1000 on an AAD they'll probably never need; given that, it's probably worth risking the loss of freebag and even main to help change your odds of a safe landing from 50% to closer to 100%.

This post is also a good reminder of why wingsuit jumpers need to pull higher. There is more to go wrong, and it takes longer to recognize and deal with the problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'd chop, if I were unsure if I could land it without getting hurt.

About damaging loaned gear, well, again, it's only money... Sure I'd feel bad, but the owner would feel bad too if I had really hurt myself to protect a piece of gear (which would then be damaged too, most likely). It just wouldn't enter my decision process, I guess.

I would really really not like cutting away my helmet with 2 camera's, but, if it's gotta go it's gotta go.

If I thought I could land a mal (I thought I did once, on a crw jump, but I cleared the stuck brake at 5.5k so didn't have to really decide yet) without getting hurt, I would. Anything else, see-ya.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I took a few sec to think about trying to land with rear risers and decided against it due to several factor..(extremely windy conditions, turbulence, etc.) and chopped my main and landed my reserve safely.



You said it yourself...you determined you couldn't land it safely. If money is more important than your life, you may want to take up another hobby.

Look at this way...it's just stuff, and stuff can be replaced eventually. But you can't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Just to add something to my previous post:

I understand if the main is un-land-able..then you don't have a choice. But what if there is a 50-50 chance of trying to land it?



I believe my reserve pack job has almost a 100% chance of opening into a landable configuration. I don't really feel like being injured. If there's any question, I'm going to chop my main.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You all are right and I know that I took the right decision..

I can still remember those few sec before cutaway. It was all so clear..there was absolutely no doubt in my mind...Why take any chance when you have a perfect reserve on your back.

Its also not about the money..its that lately some people have been giving me their opinion. You know the type, "If I were you I would..........." and thats giving rise to these doubts in my mind.

While we are on this topic, Is it worth chasing the main even if it means an off landing, which again may or may not be dangerous?

Thanks everyone for helping me to put these senseless doubts to rest...:)
cheers,

G.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


While we are on this topic, Is it worth chasing the main even if it means an off landing, which again may or may not be dangerous?



I jump almost exclusively in the mid-west, which means that for the most part landing off means landing in some farmers field. Usually corn, but sometimes soybeans or some other comodity crop.

I've followed my stuff down in the past, and this is my plan in the future. The plan is always subject to change given circumstances, of course.

Because of the conditions I jump in, I do not consider landing off the DZ to be dangerous. It's a hassle, I don't necesarily like being in the middle of a corn field when the corn is 8 feet tall, but I also do not particularly enjoy replacing expensive equipment.

I will follow my stuff down, every time. In fact, I follow other peoples stuff down pretty regularly. I usually ask myself as I'm following somebody elses stuff down why they aren't doing it themselves...

I jump at a relatively big DZ, with a relatively small landing area. Landing off is essentially a fact of life, subject to Murpheys law. It's a skill that jumpers should be confident in, confident enough to do it intentionally to recover their expensive gear.

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Is it worth chasing the main even if it means an off landing, which again may or may not be dangerous?


Depends on where you're jumping. I saw where your canopy was headed; I think I'd have made the same choice you did and landed on the airport rather than following the main.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

But what if there is a 50-50 chance of trying to land it?


Russian roulette with a 6 shot revolver.Odds are much better than 50-50.If you win you get to keep your main.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi G -

I think you did the right thing - but for different reasons than those I've seen in response to your question -

In the past several months, since rear riser technique has become "in vogue" - I have seen so many supposedly "experienced" skydivers make their canopy a folded-in-half rag at about 10 feet AGL by trying to land with their rears. In AFF I was always told if you lost a toggle, you could land it on rears. I have since learned that this statement is very untrue and unwise. Perhaps it is possible to full flare a Falcon 275 loaded at .6 to 1 by using rears - but with most canopies loaded at 1.3 to 1 and above, it requires quite a bit of skill and training. I will assure you that you CAN NOT just pull down the rears and make the canopy stop. Toggles act as flaps on a plane - reducing the stall speed of the "aircraft" and allowing the pilot to run out the landing at a relatively slow speed. Using Rears only gives you no "flaps", which greatly increases the stall speed that you are accustomed to under your own canopy. Trying to slow your canopy down to the same speed you get when using toggles will produce a violent, high speed stall, which will likely crash you onto your back. There are some talented, practiced pilots who can actually STOP their canopy on rears, but most simply use rears to plane out their canopy before transferring to toggles to stop it and finish the landing.
It is very unadvisable to try to land on rear risers without professional training and many, many rear riser practice landings way up high!
You did the right thing!

Mariann

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey, man, I watched you cutaway on that jump. You had a lot of factors to deal with and I firmly believe that if you think that chopping is what needs to happen then it is the right thing to do. Maybe someone believes they could have landed it on their rear risers, who cares? YOU were flying, you were responsible for your life and you had to consider a number of factors that would be affecting your landing. I, for one, support your decision.

I'm sorry that you never found your main, pc, and freebag. For what it's worth, people tried to chase them down for you. Those winds were crazy!
Take me, I am the drug; take me, I am hallucinogenic.
-Salvador Dali

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I guess I was not sure if I could have landed my canopy with the rear risers or not. Never thought of this situation before but I am glad I did not take the chance to find out at 10-20 feet that this is not entirely my cup of tea.

This has been a good learning experience for me. Guess there is always something new to learn that you did not think about before!

Thanks for your feed-back, I appreciate it.

G.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the $$ for the lost canopy / free bag - you can get them insured through your homeowners insurance. (Not sure about renters insurance, but probably). I never thought of this until a jumper at my DZ told me that he called State Farm up and pays like $23 (or some small amount like that) a year to cover his canopy in case he chops and loses it. While $$ for lost gear should not be the first thing on your mind while debating chopping (in my inexperienced opinion :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Its also not about the money..its that lately some people have been giving me their opinion. You know the type, "If I were you I would..........." and thats giving rise to these doubts in my mind.



I'll never understand why people cast judgment on what another jumper does during a malfunction. Those people weren't in that situation and how dare they make you feel like you made the wrong decision. You walked away, and you're alive. That's all that matters.

I always follow my main down if I have to cut away. But I've been lucky that following it down didn't cause me to land in a bad situation. I have seen jumpers that cut away their main, and don't give it a second look, and they are in an area where it's safe to follow it down.
If I can I'll follow someone else’s stuff or the person that is under a reserve.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>I'll never understand why people cast judgment on what another
>jumper does during a malfunction.

Why not? Amy broke her foot at Lost Prairie because she didn't handle a stuck line well. Jan Chandler died, possibly due to a similar problem. By talking about those sorts of problems, other people may be better prepared to deal with a problem like a stuck line.

Keep in mind that "talking about" does not equal "dissing" (although sometimes it includes that, unfortunately.) I think all skydivers know that when the shit does hit the fan it's just you up there - so you better have thought through what you're going to do _before_ that happens. Talking about outcomes of problems, especially ones like this, that could have been serious but wasn't, can help people survive those problems (I think.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Keep in mind that "talking about" does not equal "dissing" (although sometimes it includes that, unfortunately.)



I guess I should have made myself more clear. I'm talking about when other jumpers approach the person that had the malfunction, and they are okay. Yet, the other jumpers tell them, "you should have" or "I would have." IMO, if the jumper had a successful cut away and landing, they did every thing okay.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was thinking about posting something along these
lines earlier in respect to the murder in the UK... last weekend I was jumping borrowed gear (Spectre 170 - low wing loading) and on opening had a right break fire and 2 1/2 twists... I lost the best part of 1000 ft spiralling on my back before I sorted it all out. Previous to this murder inquiry, I would have considered chopping the main, but I remember thinking "at least the main is still attached to my shoulders... stick with it..." In the end I sorted it and landed safely, but was wondering if anyone else has unconsiously or consiously altered their reserve procedures in light of recent events...

This isn't a pull / don't pull your reserve risers on flightline check argument :P (I had done anyway)

Will

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0