jumping with tandems question

[pullhigh 0]

When it comes to you and your life, If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

When someone is strapped to my chest, there life depends on my skills, my equipment, my knowledge, my decsions. That person is someones, son, daughter, mother, father... That person is totally trusting their life to me, a complete stranger. Sorry, I guess maybe it is a bigger deal to me than it is to you....

[Nutz 0]

Well, you know, all of these TM's that are letting me "lurk" them all know my abilities and they let me do it, so, I don't know, it must be safe. If it wasn't then they wouldn't let me, right?

[wmw999 2,116]

99 times out of a hundred it works. Risk management says you balance what happens the time it doesn't work -- what's the damage that can occur, and are there other mitigating actions that you can take.

You can't depend on the tandem master to take any of these mitigating actions -- his sole job is himself and his student. So it comes down to the skills you have.

What if your jumpsuit blows out that day and you're sliding all over the place? What if the videographer flies under you? What if you have a premature deployment? It's not that you don't have the capacity to understand these things, it's just that your bag of experience probably hasn't been filled with enough instances of stuff going weirdly wrong.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[spidermonky 0]

Any skydive is "safe" when it goes as planned. The reason lurking scares alot of people is it complicates the skydive. If something did go wrong (say, exiting too close to the tandem) you would be endagering several lives.

I hope to lurk one day with friends and family, but not without lots of planning and practice.

[Hooknswoop 19]

You shouldn't lurk, blow by are exit anywhere near a tandem unless:

1) You have the permission of the Instructor and the video person, if any.

2) You have been briefed and understand the differences between jumping with another person and jumping with a tandem.

3) You have the ability to fly relative to the tandem, which may be backsliding, changing fall rates and generally not holding still.

4) You understand that the tandem cannot avoid you and therefore collision avoidance is the responsibility of the lurker.

5) You understand what is expected of you and can execute the plan exactly as the Instructor requests.

I have seen videos of people lurking tandems and crashing into them. Tandems are not just another skydive and adding a lurker complicates an already complicated skydive.

You ambivalent attitude towards lurking tandems is dangerous. If you make a mistake, you can kill two other people and yourself. Do not take lurking tandems lightly. Think hard about a jumpsuit to compensate for your "space shuttle" fall rate. You couldn't care less about RW? Lurking a tandem is risky RW.

Hook

[billvon 2,380]

>The reason I go by is because I fly about like the space shuttle -
> like a rock.

So what you're saying is that if you got above them (because they slid suddenly) there's no way you'd be able to _stay_ above them? You couldn't match their fall rate? Hmm. Not to put you down, but there's no way I'd let you try to "plummet by" a tandem I was doing. If you hit me you could kill 3 people.

>But then again, I am not skydiving for other people.

Well, then, problem solved for the most part. Give the tandem 8-10 seconds and you won't be an issue for them.

>I apologize, but I just don't see what the big deal is.

Tandems are not just another skydive. They are a big deal. The day a TM thinks that a tandem is not a big deal is the day he should stop doing tandems. You have much less control over your fall rate, lateral motion, stability, and pull altitude than a normal jumper does. You have 2X the number of handles, and 10X the number of mal scenarios to consider. Instability can kill you when it leads to a sidespin. And you're with someone who doesn't always cooperate with you - and you can't get rid of them.

It's definitely possible to safely jump with a tandem. To do so you need the skill to positively put yourself in a certain place in the sky relative to the tandem. Some people demonstrate this skill to get their ratings - AFF JM's. Other people have this skill from RW. It depends on the person. But the skill required is far greater than the ability required to "go by them about fifty feet away or so."

>Fortunately, you don't have to be that good to survive.

I hope you realize how wrong that statement is before you learn the hard way. When you start pushing the envelope (and jumping with a tandem _is_ pushing the envelope for someone who isn't that good at RW) then you need to be good to survive - and more importantly, to not hurt anyone else.

[slotperfect 7]

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Any skydive is "safe" when it goes as planned

Please please please be very careful about how you use the term "safe."

Skydiving is not safe. It is inherently dangerous. You will find a TON of people that agree with me here in this environment.

In my opinion, the number one thing that kills people in this sport is complacency.

Through training, equipment, Basic Safety Requirements, and a myriad of other things we make this sport as safe as we can.

I'm not saying this to beat you up . . . just to contribute to the longevity of your skydiving career. I'd like to see you around for a long long time.

Arrive Safely

John

[misterhand 0]

ok, complicated picture.
i'll run it past the tm again, he knows my skills and lack thereof, but so far from whats been said i won't push for this. at my skill level i wouldnt think of docking with a tandem, i just don't like docking, period. im sure i could DO it, but sure enough to risk 3 lives?
hell no.
i am absolutely certain i could hang out safely 100 feet out and absolutely certain i could punch it and get the hell out of there fast if the tandem headed my way or closed the distance any. certain enough to risk it?
yes. but not to insist. if the t.m. doesnt like the idea i'll drop it at once. besides which my dad'll have enough on his mind as it is without watching me flip around out there. its not as if NOT jumping with him will detract from the experience any. itll be cool enough just to both be skydiving and give him the thumbs up going backwards out the door. conservative skydiving=survival

[slotperfect 7]

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I apologize, but I just don't see what the big deal is

Scenario:

-I am jumping a 6'6" 220lb man (much like one I did earlier this year). I decide I'm gonna let you follow us out because you are his best fishing buddy.

-We do a poised exit, and he drives us forward by sticking his long legs straight out, and rolls us to the right side. It takes me about five seconds to control the exit and set the drogue.

-You do what you always do, give us two seconds and then exit, planning on getting big and screaming on by with your fast fall rate.

-Because my tall-drink-of-water tandem student drove us forward for five seconds, now you find yourself right on top of us.

-The drogue comes out, and you catch it in the face as you fall through us.

What I am hearing here is that 1) you "don't see what the big deal is" and 2) someTandem Instructor(s) have created this comfortable "I do it all the time" feeling for you, perhaps not knowing the real dangers themselves.

My intent here is not to bash anybody, including your Tandem Instructors.

I can speak for myself. I would not let you jump with me when I am doing tandems. I would gladly train you how to use exit techniques, free fall techniques, and equipment (jumpsuits) to your advantage, first fixing your fall-rate issue. Then I would be glad to train you to swoop safely and get out of trouble quickly. Then we could move on to you lurking tandems. Crawl, walk, run theory.

I'm here in North Carolina if you want to make the trip.

Regards,

Arrive Safely

John

[Gravitymaster 0]

You know Nutz, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just a troll. You keep telling us about all these TM's who allow you to lurk, but your profile is sketchy to say the least. How about letting us know where you jump, how many jumps you have, what license you hold and what kind of gear you are jumping. I'd like to call your DZ and find out who all these TMs are. You don't have a problem with that do you?

[spidermonky 0]

That's why I put it in quotations. I can be done relatively safely, or I don't think we would be doing it.
We plan for safe jumps and when it goes as planned it is "safe."
My point is you don't want to be lurking a tandem when things don't go as planned.

[misterhand 0]

ok....assuming i don't lurk the tandem then...
theres some things i don't know about descent rates, things ive never seen done. question is this: if i exit first, freefall alone and dump canopy at 4 or 5 grand...my dad's tandem exits a suitable delay later. if i hang back in deep brakes parked into the wind at say 3500 feet well below and to the side of their deployment airspace, and i do mean WELL below, what are my chances of chilling out up there and letting the tm catch up with me and fly up to hailing distance? im NOT talking doing CRW with it, not even close to CRW range, just about as close as i'd dare approach any other canopy? a few hundred feet? can the tandem get down that far from where they deploy before i run out of altitude myself? call it 2 grand? (i'm under a 190 at 155 lbs or so, light wing load....) ...or does this also just come in under "bad idea" category? i've never flown near a tandem so i'm not sure how much slower than me they come down. ive never seen it done or heard it talked about so i don't know if flying near tandems is a simple no real problem thing or if its something that is simply not done like a tandem trying to freefly. i'd think it'd be about the same as closing with anyone else except for the initial vertical and horizontal separation being more than usual between fun jumpers exiting after each other and the pursuing canopy being unusually large and slow. what DON'T i know about what im proposing here? whats the highest i can deploy before i'm intruding into the airspace of the tandem behind me?

[billvon 2,380]

>if i hang back in deep brakes parked into the wind at say 3500 feet
> well below and to the side of their deployment airspace, and i do
> mean WELL below,

3500 feet isn't well below. We used to deploy around 5000-5500 feet, and the Set-400's we'd use would snivel for 500-1000 feet easily. That puts the TM at 4000 feet assuming everything goes right. Add a difficult student and you could easily see a tandem opening fully at 3500 feet.

Matching descent rates depends on the tandem's wing loading. If it's greater than yours and you stay in brakes you might be able to match altitudes.

I would talk to the TM and ask how close he wants you to get. You'll certainly be able to see them (and be in the air with them) if they're on the same load. The TM may not want you any closer than X feet or he may not want you using him as a target at all. Also, matching altitudes with the tandem means you'll be landing at about the same time, and landing with a bunch of tandems takes a bit of attention.

[JeffGordon 0]

12/26/1998 Maricopa, AZ
Description: An experienced jumper gave his mother a tandem for Christmas. He filmed it. At pull time he found himself "next to the drogue". He hit the deploying main and became wrapped in it. He worked his way out of the mess but snagged a line with his foot. As he fell clear, the line broke and he hit the Tandem pair. He continued in freefall and deployed his main. He landed safely. The tandem master and possibly the passenger were knocked out. The tandem slowly spun into the ground. The Tandem Master is alive and in the hospital. The passenger (mother) was killed.

[jimmytavino 16]

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Well, you know, all of these TM's that are letting me "lurk" them all know my abilities and they let me do it, so, I don't know, it must be safe. If it wasn't then they wouldn't let me, right?

...Here's what i am thinking....
Are you jumping at a large DZ,, or at a small place with only 2 or 3 tandem masters..... so that "all of them know you"????....
Are you jumping at a cessna DZ ?? which may mean,, that you are simply "filling a load"..?? A Tandem pair, and a camera person,,,,, leave one slot left in a cessna....Are you grabbing that slot,,,?? and then saying,,,"well I don't wanna do a solo.".... I'll "chase the tandem"...???? cause THAT my friend is a lousy mix..... I shot tandem videos for my first 3 or 4 years,,, mostly from Cessnas.... I HATED it when a lurker,, would grab that last slot,, and then,,,if his pal was the TM,,,, (without any consultation with me,,,,) the TM would allow the guy to become a chaser....... As video man... I become target # 2 !!!,,,, or maybe target # ONE,,, cause the lurker can get so fixed on the tandem,,, that they don't even CONSIDER where the camera person is...
Plus out of a cessna,,, the exit is often lower, by 4,000feet...and so the tendancy is to RUSH,,,, in order to GEEK the student......
Gimme a break dude.... Do every one a favor,, and exit that cessna at 4,500 feet!!!!,,,,,, I will be happy to shoot your exit,,,, and be mentally saying,,
" good riddance" ... as you get the hell out..... AHHHH..!!. Now,,, instead of your cheststrap in my face,, for the next 6,000 feet of climb,,, and instead of having YOU geeking my cameras,, AND me trying to shoot around you,, to get to the student,,,, I have much more elbow room,,,I am Happy,, The TM,, is happy cause HE has more elbow room,,, the pilot is happy cause we are climbing faster,,, and the student (who
perhaps would rather NOT have you intruding into this experience),,, becomes the focus of MY attention and the TM's attention.... and THAT is what a tandem skydive should be about......If you do NOT jump at a cessna DZ,,, and are on board a larger plane,,,,,Can't you find someone to skydive with,, among those experienced jumpers who are also on the load????... If NOT,,, If they won't jump with you.... I would rather have the TM decline
your request....... But Alas... very few TM's have the savvy and the awareness to consult the camera person,,,, before granting permission.... Then,,, on top of everything else,,, I have to concern myself with where the hell is that lurker.??... ( When Informed of a 4th,,,I make a strong point to talk them,,, to discuss where they need to be in the sky,, relative to ALL of US....... and believe me the best laid plans,, don't always go as designed)....I was shooting video,,, years before many of the Tandem Masters with whom I work,,,had even started skydiving.. I remember many of them wearing student gear,, hell I have videos of them wearing student gear.... and of them walking to the plane with their knees knocking....... so to an extent,, it bugs me not to be consulted,, when a 4th or 5th or 6th person is invited onto what for me is a "work jump".... ... If on the other hand,,, you have the experience,, and the CREDENTIALS , (i.e. RATING) to be on the jump,,, I welcome your friendly face,,, and
establish eye contact with YOU as well as with the
TM, at the proper moments of the dive....
let's be careful out there.....
So how about it Nutz??? have I guessed correctly that these tandem chases
are originating out of a 182 or a 180????????? peace... jimmy

[pullhigh 0]

I think Jeff just answered all the quisetions with that simple cut and paste......

[misterhand 0]

aah. thank you. that was what i was looking for.....its been years since i did a tandem so i wasnt sure where they actually come to a stop after deploy....how long a tandem snivels for. so if i want to do a long range canopy flyby with the tm's ok i'd want to be in the saddle by 3 grand? thatd give me about 1k feet to get level say hi and get out of there. i wouldn't want to be on a level with the tandem for long....shortly after i'd get the hell away from it and land elsewhere....large lz here i can land 4-600 yards away if i want.
normally here theres always a large vertical separation between tandems and everyone else. i wondered if there were any other reasons for this besides the obvious keeping the air clear for big slow canopies reason. again, thanks. i think i'll stay the hell away from it in freefall and only get within 1000 feet of it with the tm's ok under canopy. why push it? theres just too damn many horror stories of people who THOUGHT they had it all handled.....
i hate statistics. i really hate becoming one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Jimmy, You are correct about the C182. Here are some other gems by Nutz on these forums

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"When properly executed, skydiving is safer than driving your car."

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" Up until jump 20, I was just barely under 1, at jump 21 I went to just barely over 1, at jump 27 I went to 1.31 where I have been ever sinse. It took until about jump 40 until I could stand it up consistently. I now have 154 jumps. I don't think that I am ready to downsize any more just yet because the flying and landings are still fun. I am sure some people will say that I went down too quick and there are some places that won't let me jump, although I haven't found any just heard about them here"

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"first time I caught the skyball, I was so excited that I threw it back way too hard and hit my buddy right in the face with it, now that was funny. "

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"I have tried PRO packing but my canopy is too new for me to be able to pack that way. I have only had one mal in 140 jumps packing this way. Of course - I only have about 160 jumps total but I have had some real bad openings on canopies that were PRO packed. Some by me, some by others and on different canopies. My first main I finally got rid of because I could not get it to open softly."

"I suck at rw and everything else except for pulling and pulling on time. And having a good time. (I guess that goes without saying) "

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"I jump at Skydive Alabama in Cullman, have a Javelin with a Flight Concepts Sentry 190"***

Hey Nutz......Are these some self admitted examples of your "Skydiving Abilities"??? Just wondering why a TM would let you shadow their tandems?

You also might want to stop and think about who reads these forums because I got a feeling they aren't going to be too happy with you at Skydive Alabama in Cullman this coming weekend.

[bmoore21184 0]

I have been reading these and i was just curious about something. At our dz the tandems always get out last due to their higher openings. So why are you Nutz getting out behind the tandems? Especially with your "space shuttle" like fall rate? That has always been my experience, tandems getting out last. Is it different in other dz's? I am assuming it is. Anyways just a thought that crossed my mind

B Moore

'Turbulence is a bitch'

[D22369 0]

I don't see what the big deal is. I lurk tandems all the time. (Mostly I just blow by them trying to get big.)

**say what??**
With this statement you prove that "a" you dont have the skill to jump with tandems, and "b" you lack the mental clarity to keep yourself from becoming a hazard to them. That tandem is paying for a ride......a fun ride.....not a ride from hell, which a rookie with an overinflated ego could quite easily turn it into.

**>I usually will track over and then wave as I go by

great- just -great, so your using them for target practice.... What if your trajectory is off???

Thank god the dz's that I work at require both the TM and the video's approval for someone to jump with us.

In my opinion Your tandem instructor needs his head examined.

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[FreeFlyASC 0]

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I am following them out and after the drogue is out I go by about fifty or so feet away. The reason I go by is because I fly about like the space shuttle - like a rock. I am not that good a skydiver.

As a tandem instructor what you just describe is my worst nightmare.

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but I just don't see what the big deal is.

Hmmm maybe the big deal is the life of the Tandem student. That student did not pay good money so that you can come take him out on a jump.

[StearmanR985 0]

I am brand new to the sport but I am already hoping that by late next spring I can dock with my wife while she is on a tandem. I won't try it without having at least 30 jumps, I intend to ask my JM to do the tandem, and get his permission to lurk/dock.

Common sense tells me that I shouldn't be near a tandem regardless of my experience without permission.

Yeah, I know, jumping ahead of myself again being I am still in T-AF. I can't help it though...

[skydivejersey 0]

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I won't try it without having at least 30 jumps

Stick a 0 on the end of that number and your getting closer.

[PhreeZone 14]

30 jumps is'nt enough to get near me under tandem. I'll maybe let someone thats got 50 jumps and I've jumped with before and they are good enough to fly with Airspeed, but even then its shakey. 100 is better, 200 I'll feel better with and 500 is best.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skydivejersey 0]

You need a C license before you can even go as a tandem passenger (for a student TM!)