jumping with tandems question

[misterhand 0]

what are the rules on jumping with tandems? i asked a tm awhile ago but i forget the details....
im at 93 jumps now, a-license.....my father will be back in town shortly and wishes to do a tandem. ideally i'd be able to jump with him, fly up, say hi...or at least exit same time and hang out nearby in freefall, maybe 50-100 feet away? is it not allowed or do i need to hold a rating or what?

[lewmonst 0]

It's up to the Tandem Instructor. If the TI knows you well and knows your ability, then you might get the go ahead. But it's their call. I jumped with my mom's tandem when i only had 28 jumps, but the TI was also my instructor and coach for most of my student jumps, he knew i'd be safe.

have fun.

peace

http://www.exitshot.com

[PhreeZone 15]

I just went through the Vector class and here are the 4 main rules to follow:

1) Never get above or below the tandem
2) Approach slowly, a Tandem can not move out of the way
3) If you are going to take grips only take grips on the student
4) At pull time give plenty of room

RWS says that you really should have 500 jumps, be a TM/AFFI and have currency. I've seen this rule broken a lot though.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[riggerrob 558]

If you want to chase me doing a tnadem, you had better be a current AFF Instructor, have more than a thousand jumps and be in my good books. Hint the last person that I allowed to chase me was Gretchen Dunn, who was on the world-record 300-way.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I only very-rarely allow anyone to do RW or video me who does not have 500 jumps and a rating. RWS says that you must have the same qualifications as the TM.

Chuck

[pilotdave 0]

What is it that makes jumping with a tandem so difficult/dangerous? I realize that a tandem has very limited maneuverability and all that, and an entaglement with the drogue might kill 3 people, but it seems like a tandem would also be an easy target to avoid. What's the deal?

Dave

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

You said the key word: target. I have had PLENTY of very qualified skydivers (RW competitors, freeflyers, other instructors) fall into the burble, take out my cameraman, or just plain run into me. The TM is ultimately responsible for the safety of his or her student, so allowing less-than-qualified friends and family accompany you is a true roll of the dice.

Chuck

[Cajones 0]

I've had many, many lurkers on tandems. Of various experience levels.

The key is definitely knowing who you're jumping with. I don't want to see the RW additude of "get in or go in." Conservative, on-level approaches, after the drogue is deployed, handle checks are done,and the TI waves the jumpers in. If there is video on the load, the pre-jump briefing is done with both the TI and the video. The TI waits for the video to get into his slot before anyone else docks. Docksare only on the student, and break off for the lurker(s) is 6,000 feet, or higher. There's not much working time with all these, very conservative rules, so give the lurker an expectation of nothing more than a short dock, with time to geek the camera, or give a smooch to the student.

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[skygod7777 0]

i believe vector and racer say 500 jumps. strong says they recomend 100 jumps, but it is up to the tandem instructor.

i know some TI's say only aff instructors can jump with them (for like video). and i know many more that really don't care how many jumps you have, it's your ability to fly.

so, talk to the TI and maybe make a jump with him or her, and they can make the decision.

later

[slotperfect 7]

As previously posted, each manufacturer has their minimum qualifications for jumpers to do RW with a tandem. These requirements are set forth with both safety and protection from liability in mind.

I echo several others here that say they will only let certain highly qualified individuals that they are familiar and comfortable with jump with them.

I will let a low-timer who has some connection with the tandem student (boyfriend, mom, son, etc) exit first and wave goodbye to us before or after the cameraman climbs out (the cameraman's call, depending on the aircraft). This has worked very well for me.

I have seen video of very switched on jumpers making errors in judgement and putting a tandem pair in danger.

So, my suggestion to you is to discuss it with the Tandem Instructor in advance, just between the two of you. He will make the ultimate call, and you get to trust his judgement. He is, after all, the one you will be trusting your Father with, right?

Arrive Safely

John

[billbooth 10]

A few years ago, a Tandem Instructor allowed a jumper, with about twice as many jumps as you have, follow him out...only, he later told me, because the young jumper's mother was the passenger. The jumper was instructed to wait 3 seconds before exiting, not to dock, and only to watch from a distance. To make a long story short, the jumper collided with the tandem pair during opening and killed his own mother.

A few years before, another jumper was killed when he docked on the passenger's leg, from behind, just as the TI released the drogue.

This is one rule that has some very good reasons behind it. Please don't put Relative Workshop TI's on the spot by asking them to break the rules.

[nightjumps 1]

Quote

"...have 500 jumps and a rating. RWS says that you must have the same qualifications as the TM."

I jump an Eclipse which has the same requirements... even for the videographer.

[jdhill 0]

Bill,

Just for the sake of discussion, what does having a rating have to do with flying tandem video?

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Hooknswoop 19]

There are a lot of camera flyers filming tandems out there without an AFF or tandem rating. As a Tandem Instructor, am I suppose to refuse to allow a camera flyer that has filmed hundreds of tandems to accompany me on a tandem?

I agree that the video flyer needs to be experienced and understand what is going on, but the requirements aren't enforced by Tandem Instructors or DZO's. If I were to say (at some DZ's), "that video flyer doesn't have a rating, he can't video me", the answer would be, "fine, you can only take tandems w/o video,and we don't have any of those today, goodbye". The Tandem Instructors can't enforce the rule if they want to do tandems, DZO's don't enforce the rule.

Hook

[billbooth 10]

You camera guys are absolutely right. When the tandem RW rules were written, it was a different world. Tandem camera flying, as a profession, didn't yet exist. My answer was aimed at very inexperienced jumpers who want to follow friends or relatives out. Relative Workshop is trying hard to get out of the tandem regulation business, in favor of USPA, anyway. I think you photographers need to get together and form at least some basic guidelines for tandem photographers.

[Hooknswoop 19]

What would your recommendations for minimum experience/qualifications, etc., be for videoing tandems?

BTW- I've never video'd a tandem, always been on the other side of the camera. Also, will RWS be out of the tandem regulation business before me renewal is due in July?

Hook

[riggerrob 558]

[What would your recommendations for minimum experience/qualifications, etc., be for videoing tandems? ]

Let's ask the videographers' union.

[jdhill 0]

I've started a thread over in the Photo/Video forum to see if there is a consensus (at least within this community) on what those requirements should be...

Josh

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[Nutz 0]

I don't see what the big deal is. I lurk tandems all the time. (Mostly I just blow by them trying to get big.) You just give them at least two seconds and then don't get above them. I usually will track over and then wave as I go by. Then do a back flip for the student and track away. (Perpindicular to the jump run of course.) Oh, by the way, I have over one hundred but less than two hundred jumps.

[PhreeZone 15]

As a TM in training I would never let a jumper just follow me out unless I knew they were a very competent jumper. I've already made my opinion on some jumpers at my DZ that if I ever do a tandem they are not allowed to video or lurk the skydive at all since I don't trust them.

Hanging under the drogue looking at some one swooping in on you thats coming in way too hot is not some place I ever want to be.

I never saw the big deal either until I went through the course to get my rating and all of a sudden all the rules that I thought were silly suddenly made a lot of sence.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[lewmonst 0]

reading my previous post in this thread, it didn't sound safe. As I said I jumped with a tandem when i was very young jumper. the TI was my primary instructor and knew my abilities very well, he also had around a thousand tandems. I stayed on level the whole jump, about 50 ft away. I never attempted to dock with a tandem until I had probably 600 jumps. And even then, it was a very, very conservative approach. I've been videoing tandems for that last year, and will dock only if I know the TI very well and everything is very stable. As for my early lurking jump, I could never see myself allwoing someone with so few jumps to lurk when I get my TI rating.
Safety First.

Peace

http://www.exitshot.com

[dreamsville 0]

Recognizing that there is a thread elsewhere, I just wanted to mention one thing that may be obvious. The similarity between RW and jumping with a tandem is that you would never fly straight to your person at a high rate of speed but, especially on larger-ways, aim for a point just outside your slot. Then make sure the fall rate is good and come in gently. If you can treat your tandem target like a delicate big way slot you stand a good chance of keeping people safe.
|

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I don't see what the big deal is.

I have someone strapped to me, I have to get stable, throw a drogue which makes me a sitting duck, and then my passenger is usually changing body positions, which I have to counter and adjust for. That makes us speed up and slow down and move around the sky a bit, all randomly. Add in someone I can't see above me, that can't match fall rates, attempting to fall close past me. I would feel like William Tell with an apple on my head. If you miss, we get hit.

You don't see the big deal because your on the other side. With your abilities and attitude (taking it so lightly) I wouldn't let you lurk (or go zooming past). No offense.

Why can't you match fall rates?

Hook

[pullhigh 0]

No offense, but maybe the name "Nutz" fits....

I do not know you or your abaility, but I am very conservative about who I allow to lurk my tandem jumps. I already have 4 extra limbs for shit to wrap around, flaps open, a pilot chute in tow, and someone strapped to my chest that may or may not be trying to kill me.....

I like the odds better without another "Cowboy" in the sky just hoping to touch the person strapped to my chest.

[Nutz 0]

Actually, the name does fit. I am a very conservative skydiver, I believe. Lets face it though, skydiving is not rocket science, and I should know. When I "lurk" a tandem it is not really lurking, I am following them out and after the drogue is out I go by about fifty or so feet away. The reason I go by is because I fly about like the space shuttle - like a rock. I am not that good a skydiver. Fortunately, you don't have to be that good to survive. (It does require a certain amount of luck and you MUST have all your body parts intact - See the name.) I am ALWAYS watching out for other people and my coservative nature makes docking difficult for me. But then again, I am not skydiving for other people. (There is a story about a coach asking a player, "Son, what is your problem, ignorance or apathy?" And the player says, "Coach, I don't know and I don't care." That sort of sums up my feeling on RW.) I have had TM's tell me they don't want me "lurking" them. (Usually they are doing an IAF skydive and don't want the added distraction.) However, I have never been and will never be a danger to them or their "student" by falling by close to them and tracking away and opening lower than them. I apologize, but I just don't see what the big deal is.