USPA Individual Members Please assist.

[chriswelker 0]

A group of USPA individual members want to hold a Coach rating course at West Tennessee Skydiving Oct. 25-26, 2003. Andy Anderson contacted Bram Clement to conduct the course and Bram agreed.

The candidates are covering Bram's expenses and paying the normal course fees for the materials needed; however, they are also being forced to pay an extra $600 since the course is being held at a non-Group Member Drop Zone. FYI the Group Membership Committee put forth the motion that created the "fee rule" at the 2001 Winter BOD meeting.

The candidates for the course don't think it is fair and all of the USPA members that I spoke with at West Tennessee Skydiving this weekend don't think it is right either.

The facilities are some of the best in the counrty with 3 full scale mock-ups of a King Air , C-195, and C-182. 2 class rooms and more than enough of everything else.

Please assist your fellow skydiving brother and sister by e-mailing or contacting your elected USPA leadership immediately in regards to this situation and voice your displeasure.


Blue Ones,
Chris Welker
D19678

[Ron 10]

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Please assist your fellow skydiving brother and sister by e-mailing or contacting your elected USPA leadership immediately in regards to this situation and voice your displeasure.

How about have your guys call Mike Mullins and tell him to become a Group member? He is on the BOD after all. Its funny that a guy on the BOD of the USPA has a DZ that is not group member, and lets his kids violate the USPA huh?

BTW I voted for Mike, and like him...I was even at his last wedding. But insted of bitching about the USPA's rules you could:

1. Have Mike join the Group member program.
2. Hold the course at any other DZ that is a group member.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

Ron, first off we have not found a good reason to be a group member dropzone, nor should we be blackmailed in to it.

second, you've jumped at the other dz's aside from WTS that are 2-3 hours from Memphis and they do not have the facilities that WTS does, not even remotely close to having the facilities.

All these due paying members that want to be take the coaches course should not have to drive several hours and pay up for a hotel and extra driving expenses at a "group" member dropzone that does not have the mock ups or class rooms and overall facilites that are just an hour or less from where they live.

BTW Ron, you have to be a member or an organization to "violate" the rules. Some of the kids are not members.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 10]

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Ron, first off we have not found a good reason to be a group member dropzone, nor should we be blackmailed in to it.

Fair enough, but the USPA should not have to change its rules either. The USPA wants to support the group member DZ's. Its their right. Now I personally think the GM program is a big waste and is worthless, but its there.

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second, you've jumped at the other dz's aside from WTS that are 2-3 hours from Memphis and they do not have the facilities that WTS does, not even remotely close to having the facilities.

Yep, a fantastic DZ...Im still waiting to hear of a 99.00 boogie to come up again. But thats not the issue. The issue is you want people to pressure the USPA to change its rules. Now I think its a stupid rule and it promotes a stupid program. But there are other ways to fix it...One is get Mike to join, the other is hold it somewhere else.

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All these due paying members that want to be take the coaches course should not have to drive several hours and pay up for a hotel and extra driving expenses at a "group" member dropzone that does not have the mock ups or class rooms and overall facilites that are just an hour or less from where they live.

Again, I agree. I just gave you other options than trying to make the USPA change its rules. I think the USPA is a very badly run organization...But it does "own" the coaches program. And if it prefers it was held a a GM DZ then it is the organizations right to do so, or charge a fee to hold it somewhere else.

The GM program is stupid...It does nothing. and the USPA needs to choose if it is going to support the Skydivers of the US or the DZ's...One organization cannot serve two masters. And this is a perfect example of that.

In this case the USPA is putting the GM program over its general members....And that is a problem.

However it is the USPA's right to do that even if it is bad business.

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BTW Ron, you have to be a member or an organization to "violate" the rules. Some of the kids are not members.

Yep, the kids are not doing anything wrong. But their Daddy is on the BOD of that orginization and he lets them jump. And that is kinda funny don't you think?

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Luminous 0]

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Ron, first off we have not found a good reason to be a group member dropzone, nor should we be blackmailed in to it.

Here's one, You wouldn't have to pay non-group member fees for USPA courses.

I've been through numerous discussions regarding Mike's decisions regarding USPA membership. And I also find it ironic that he's on the board. He's a great guy, a GREAT pilot, and his King Air ROCKS!

That being said, your decision to jump at a non-USPA group member dropzone is your decision and you must deal with the consequences. It is silly to state that your "due paying members" etc... and then in the next paragraph state that you have to be a member to "violate" the rules.

Make up your mind. In this case the "violation" is that your jumping at a non-USPA group member DZ. If the DZ wants the course there, have them foot the "non-USPA" bill.

Hope you get your course and everyone passes.

BSBD
Larry

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[jlmiracle 7]

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Ron, first off we have not found a good reason to be a group member dropzone, nor should we be blackmailed in to it.

Here's one, You wouldn't have to pay non-group member fees for USPA courses.

I've been through numerous discussions regarding Mike's decisions regarding USPA membership. And I also find it ironic that he's on the board. He's a great guy, a GREAT pilot, and his King Air ROCKS!

That being said, your decision to jump at a non-USPA group member dropzone is your decision and you must deal with the consequences. It is silly to state that your "due paying members" etc... and then in the next paragraph state that you have to be a member to "violate" the rules.

Make up your mind. In this case the "violation" is that your jumping at a non-USPA group member DZ. If the DZ wants the course there, have them foot the "non-USPA" bill.

_______________________________________________

We are not in violation of anything by jumping at a non-group member dropzone. The USPA just needs money.
__________________________________________________
Hope you get your course and everyone passes.

BSBD
Larry

Ron's quote
How about have your guys call Mike Mullins and tell him to become a Group member? He is on the BOD after all. Its funny that a guy on the BOD of the USPA has a DZ that is not group member, and lets his kids violate the USPA huh?
end ron's quote


You have to be 18 years old to be a coach or instructor.

I am not in violation by jumping at a non-group member dropzone.

The "rules" were changed on the AFF courses not the Coaches courses. Chris and I went to a board meeting to get the AFF course we had a few years back. Don Yahrling stated that he conducts course at hotels and other places that are not even dropzones let along group member dropzones that never HAD to become group member dropzones, nor had to PAY and extra fee to hold the courses.

Its hard to help the USPA, especially during their extreme hardship with insurance and what not, when the do nothing for the individual members.

We are not asking for much, just trying to get our new jumpers jumping with coaches so they can get the A license since our instructors can get very backed up with other students. All we want to do is help grow the sport and keep the students interested and jumping.

We are abiding by the ISP, filling out A license cards, quizing the students, making sure the do everything that is required on their A license card. If we had a few more coaches on the dropzone, we could do this quicker. Now I get to tell the new jumper well, sorry, we would have people to jump with you but the USPA wouldn't let us hold a coaches course here and with the economy the way it is, most of the candidates can't afford to fly across the county to try to find a "group member" dropzone with the same or better facilities.

This is an individual membership benefit. The individual member should not be penalized because of where they choose to jump.


Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[buzzfink 5]

I agree with Ron. The coach course is a service to it's members and should be able to be held anywhere, GM DZ or not. USPA keeps saying how they fight for all skydivers and keep skydivers skydiving. Here is a great way to show it. At the very least, they are improving overall safety in the sport by providing needed training for USPA MEMBERS, who may take what they learned back to non-GM DZ's. That can only help the sport. Instead, they use this to pressure DZ's to become GM's. I was at the meetings where this was discussed. It was even suggested by one National Director that teams competing in the Nationals should have to practice only at GM DZ's. That obviously did not fly. But the Course fee for non-GM's did.

This is just another reason to do away with the GM program and go back to an organization for by jumpers for jumpers.

For the record, I think the coach course program is a good one and USPA has done a good job of managing it.

Just my 2 cents worth.


Buzz Fink

[Ron 10]

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This is an individual membership benefit. The individual member should not be penalized because of where they choose to jump.

How is the individual being penalized? Because they are not getting what they want,where they want it? It's not the USPA's or the individuals fault that WTS is not a group member DZ.

You can't expect the USPA to be happy about holding a course at a non USPA Group Member DZ.

And the USPA has the right to do whatever they want when it comes to its programs.

Fact is that you don't even need the coaches rating to do whatever you want at WTS....You are not a GM and therefore you don't have to follow ANY USPA BSR's. Your students don't need a license. The fact that you do follow the BSR's and use the USPA trained Instructors and programs tells me that the whole issue seems to be money.

Mike is unwilling to join since he does not see the need. I personally agree and wish more DZ's would do this, or the USPA should realize that they can't serve both the GM's and the general members.

But the facts are quite clear:

1. Mike does not see the need to spend the money and join the GM program. He is already following the "pledge".
2. WTS does not HAVE to use USPA aproved anything...Since they are not a GM they can do as they please...such as let people under the age of 16 skydive. So your students don't NEED to be told that they have to wait for a USPA approved coach to jump with them...Since you are not a GM you don't need USPA rated coaches. You CHOOSE to tell them that. Again your right, but you can't expect the USPA to do as you wish when you will not even join the GM program.

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most of the candidates can't afford to fly across the county to try to find a "group member" dropzone with the same or better facilities

You don't need great facilities...you just said Don has taught the AFF course at hotels. So nobody has to travel across the country. Hazen is 1.5 hrs away off of I-40. When I lived in MEM it took me an hr to get to WTS. Walmart sells tents for 15 bucks. Hell the folks at Hazen will let you crash in the trailer, or take you home.

Its a matter of how bad do your coach canidates want it? I live in Zhills and people come from all over the US to get training.

Or they can simply pony up the extra money.

I don't have an issue with you thinking that its stupid to have to pay more at a non GM DZ...I agree. But do you realize that it is that way due to Mikes not wanting to joing the GM program, and not the fault of the USPA?

I personally think the USPA GM program is a waste of time and money. But the USPA does not think so.

I think the USPA should represent the Jumpers in the US, not the DZ's. They have shown many times that they can't do both, and they always favor the GM's over the General members.

However the USPA has most people over a barrel. Join the USPA or you can't jump at places like Zhills, Perris, Eloy,Lake Wales, Elsinore, Raeford, The Ranch...And you can't call yourself an Instructor without a certifying agency...So if you want to jump at any of those places or teach, you will just write the check and bitch about it....But you will write the check.

If the USPA droped the GM program, most DZ's would not longer require USPA membership...And most people would drop the USPA membership since the USPA does not do anything.

The USPA would then be left with a cool empty museum that no one will go to.

So they will never drop the GM program. And the DZ's will require the USPA membership to jump there...Keeping the USPA in business.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jlmiracle 7]

I jumped at that place once and it took me over 2 hours to get there. I felt very uncomfortable once I got there.

That small trailer could not accomodate 7+ candidates, nor are there any mock ups.

We do follow the ISP and other USPA crap, but like you said, we don't have to. In fact we probably have a better way of doing it, safer, more economical.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Ron 10]

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I jumped at that place once and it took me over 2 hours to get there. I felt very uncomfortable once I got there.

Ok then don't go back. but its a shame to slam a place after one visit.....When I lived in MEM it only took me 30 min longer to get to than WTS. I felt very comfertable there, and like it for a small DZ. In fact once I felt uncomfertable at WTS.

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That small trailer could not accomodate 7+ candidates, nor are there any mock ups.

Yep, WTS has much better facilities than most DZ's in the US and hands down in that area. But the issue is not facilities, its the Group Member program VS. the General Membership program...And for the record I agree with you. However you just don't seem to understand its the USPA's right to do that.

And you only had one solution that had almost no chance of working.

1. pressure the USPA to drop the extra fee.

I gave you three that would work:

1. Have Mike join the GM program.
2. Pay the extra 600.00
3. Go somewhere else.

While I think its a stupid rule...the fact is it is a rule, and they have the right to have that stupid rule....They have something you want. You either do what they ask you to do, or you don't get it...

Its a lot like night jumps and the "D".

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We do follow the ISP and other USPA crap, but like you said, we don't have to. In fact we probably have a better way of doing it, safer, more economical.

I don't know, but you probley do.

But the fact is..You want it, they have it.

You can either do what they want to get it, or go without.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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We are not asking for much, just trying to get our new jumpers jumping with coaches so they can get the A license since our instructors can get very backed up with other students. All we want to do is help grow the sport and keep the students interested and jumping.

We are abiding by the ISP, filling out A license cards, quizing the students, making sure the do everything that is required on their A license card. If we had a few more coaches on the dropzone, we could do this quicker. Now I get to tell the new jumper well, sorry, we would have people to jump with you but the USPA wouldn't let us hold a coaches course here and with the economy the way it is, most of the candidates can't afford to fly across the county to try to find a "group member" dropzone with the same or better facilities.

This is an individual membership benefit. The individual member should not be penalized because of where they choose to jump.


Judy

Yes, as a DZ you DO benefit from having more coaches. You can make more jumps per day that bring revenue in to the DZ. So it is a DZ benefit to have a coaches course. And no one said you couldn't have a coaches course there. You have to pay a fee because you are a Non-GM DZ. But you are not precluded from having the course just because you are a non-GM DZ. So, I would say that is your real reason for becoming a GM DZ if you didn't have a reason before.

What would the course cost to the DZ be compared to the cost of becoming a GM DZ? Isn't is about the same? 600 bucks?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jlmiracle 7]

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What would the course cost to the DZ be compared to the cost of becoming a GM DZ? Isn't is about the same? 600 bucks?

Actually it is more than group membership, but we don't want to be a group member dropzone, and I asked some outsiders (whuffos) about all this and they all used the term blackmail. This benefit is not worth $600.00.

judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[diablopilot 2]

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Ron, first off we have not found a good reason to be a group member dropzone, nor should we be blackmailed in to it.

You're not.

You're just not receiving one of the "benefits" of becoming a group member.

Quote

second, you've jumped at the other dz's aside from WTS that are 2-3 hours from Memphis and they do not have the facilities that WTS does, not even remotely close to having the facilities.

All these due paying members that want to be take the coaches course should not have to drive several hours and pay up for a hotel and extra driving expenses at a "group" member dropzone that does not have the mock ups or class rooms and overall facilites that are just an hour or less from where they live.

You may offer the best facilities in 100 miles (I don't know) but you don't offer USPA group membership.

No biggie, but I don't think you really have a valid argument.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diverdriver 5]

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Quote

What would the course cost to the DZ be compared to the cost of becoming a GM DZ? Isn't is about the same? 600 bucks?

Actually it is more than group membership, but we don't want to be a group member dropzone, and I asked some outsiders (whuffos) about all this and they all used the term blackmail. This benefit is not worth $600.00.

judy

So GM is less than the course fee? So how many students is that for you? The revenue of 4 students is worth all this hubbub? You can make your stand. But, I can't see helping out with a letter to the BOD (which Mike is already on) to get this waived. The USPA went to trouble to put the course together. They should be allowed to recoup some of that effort (even if it was by unpaid volunteers). Either they get it with the GM fee (which you've stated would be less than the course fee) or they charge a course fee. Seems fairly easy which way you would go but if you want to keep letting jumpers less than the USPA age minimum jump you'll have to accept the consequences.

Sorry, I totally disagree with letting people under the age of 18 jump. I don't feel you should be able to make that life and death decision until you are an adult. If this whole hubbub is caused by this other fued then I can't see supporting it.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jlmiracle 7]

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You're just not receiving one of the "benefits" of becoming a group member.

You may offer the best facilities in 100 miles (I don't know) but you don't offer USPA group membership.

No biggie, but I don't think you really have a valid argument.

Okay, let me ask this. How do you feel about the Group Membership Committee instead of the Safety and Training Committee coming up with these fees regarding training. (Motion #33, summer 2001 BOD meeting).

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Luminous 0]

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I jumped at that place once and it took me over 2 hours to get there. I felt very uncomfortable once I got there.

That small trailer could not accomodate 7+ candidates, nor are there any mock ups.

We do follow the ISP and other USPA crap, but like you said, we don't have to. In fact we probably have a better way of doing it, safer, more economical.

I detoured about 3 hours, of a normally 13 hr trip home, to get to WTS. Trying to get someone to jump with me was like pulling teeth. (I had around 800 jumps at the time). I finally got 3 others and wound up teaching THEM how to exit a 4 way from a King Air.

During my 1 day visit, 2 people hooked in bad enough to bounce a couple of times, (neither extremly lucky jumper broke anything), and how about the one's screaming GF running through the landing area while jumpers were landing. This same jumper when I commented on how bad it looked and lucky he was replied "Oh that's nothing compared to what I have done.". And then there was the young jumper swooping the hanger downwind clipping the antenna on the way by.

More economical I'm sure. Better and Safer? I really have my doubts about that.

BSBD
Larry

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[jlmiracle 7]

[reply}

More economical I'm sure. Better and Safer? I really have my doubts about that.

BSBD
Larry

[RippedCord 0]

Original post deleted. I'm going to stay out of this topic as its overtones are clearly more political than anything else.

AMDG

[rjf98 0]

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We do follow the ISP and other USPA crap, but like you said, we don't have to. In fact we probably have a better way of doing it, safer, more economical

You follow "crap"? Why... could it be that maybe.. while I know it's not a popular opinion.. USPA DOES actually do something to benefit the sport and it's members?
Could it be that they provide, through group member DZs, a level of comfort (for up jumpers) and known safety requirements (for beginners)?

Just my crazy idea to support an organization that created a license system for our sport and its instructors. I am a licensed USPA instructor. I'm not the best skydiver.... not even at my DZ. I do provide a level of service that can be counted on. Not that someone else couldn't, it's just that my rating says I can. I think there recent interaction with the TSA should be mentioned here as well.

If you believe in the USPA or not it really doesn't matter. All of that last paragraph isn't really what’s important. What is, is this "membership has its privileges." Don't ask me to pay for yours.

[jlmiracle 7]

okay that "safer" comment was not directed at a particular dz in the area, it was directed at the USPA's coach course. I'm frustrated with all the politics and the fact we are losing new jumpers left and right because we can't keep them interested in jumping sitting on the ground waiting for a coach.

A USPA application is in every first jump course packet. Just because a dz is a group member dz does not make it any safer than a non-gm dz.

__________________________________________________
If you believe in the USPA or not it really doesn't matter. All of that last paragraph isn't really what’s important. What is, is this "membership has its privileges." Don't ask me to pay for yours.
_________________________________________________

I paid my membership dues and I'm not asking you to pay mine. I'm tired of paying for the group membership costs though, since they aren't paying their way.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[rjf98 0]

If you have a better way than the USPAs then start your own organization and licensing system.

I don't want this to turn into a tit for tat between us, and I should probably be working right now anyway.

It's not blackmail. Start your own association, come up with your own rules and regs, and license your own coaches. Take a look at the FF forum. There is talk there of a new FF license system, and the atmoshere Dolphin licenses aren't USPA, but are fairly well recognized. Maybe you could be the next big thing.

[AggieDave 6]

How does the presence of mockups really make a difference? It makes things more convinent, but that's not a big deal. When I went through the USPA's Coach Course, we just used the plane as our "mockup" it was no big deal.

Rich wasn't talking about your personal USPA membership, he was talking about the GM program, stating that yall aren't members and you've hit this snag due to not being members in respect to the canidates having to pay a fairly sizable amount of money more due to the DZ not being a GM DZ.

Personally I think it is asinine that a BOD member's DZ isn't a GM DZ, if he has a problem with it, then work to fix it and move on.

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Just because a dz is a group member dz does not make it any safer than a non-gm dz.

Isn't that what you just proclaimed a few posts ago but reversed, in regards to the Coach Course about to be offered? Stating that you have a better way to train USPA Coaches then the other GMs around the area.


Basically, the only advantage I can see for your DZ not being a GM DZ is that Mike's kids can jump without violating the BSRs, but beyond that I don't see any real advantage.

Yeah, it costs money to be in the GM program, but then you can advertise that "WTS is the only DZ in TN that is sactioned by the USPA with really good facilities..." etc.

Sure, sounds stupid to skydivers, but I have seen that make a difference to whuffos more then a few times.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jlmiracle 7]

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How does the presence of mockups really make a difference? It makes things more convinent, but that's not a big deal. When I went through the USPA's Coach Course, we just used the plane as our "mockup" it was no big deal.
_________________________________________________
We would like to give the candidates the BEST available facilites that we can.
_________________________________________________

Rich wasn't talking about your personal USPA membership, he was talking about the GM program, stating that yall aren't members and you've hit this snag due to not being members in respect to the canidates having to pay a fairly sizable amount of money more due to the DZ not being a GM DZ.

Personally I think it is asinine that a BOD member's DZ isn't a GM DZ, if he has a problem with it, then work to fix it and move on.
_________________________________________________
He has tried to fix it, aggiedave. Do you realize he, himself, cannot change the rules. If that were the case, this wouldn't be a problem. He doesn't like the fact that the GM progam does not pay for itself. and doesn't want to pass that cost along to the individual members.
__________________________________________________

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Just because a dz is a group member dz does not make it any safer than a non-gm dz.

Isn't that what you just proclaimed a few posts ago but reversed, in regards to the Coach Course about to be offered? Stating that you have a better way to train USPA Coaches then the other GMs around the area.


Basically, the only advantage I can see for your DZ not being a GM DZ is that Mike's kids can jump without violating the BSRs, but beyond that I don't see any real advantage.

Yeah, it costs money to be in the GM program, but then you can advertise that "WTS is the only DZ in TN that is sactioned by the USPA with really good facilities..." etc.
__________________________________________________
I didn't realize the USPA Sanctioned dz's. I thought we had to answer to the FAA. So I guess that one dz that says they are USPA certifed is corrent then too. They let you pay some money and put you name in their magazine.
__________________________________________________

No I don't have a better way to do it but I will find one. If you read the whole post between Ron and I and he stated we don't have to follow the rules. I never meant that WE HAVE a better way to train coaches just that we will come up with a better way if it comes to that.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[AggieDave 6]

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I never meant that WE HAVE a better way to train coaches

Ummmm...that's what you said a few posts ago, I'll paste it here for reference:

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We do follow the ISP and other USPA crap, but like you said, we don't have to. In fact we probably have a better way of doing it, safer, more economical

So, since I didn't have access to "better" facilities does that mean that I'm not as good of a Coach or TM?

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Do you realize he, himself, cannot change the rules.

Yup, I realize that, that's why the USPA has a Board of Directors, BUT as I said, he can work to change it.

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I thought we had to answer to the FAA.

Right, sort of. The FAA oversees all non-military aviation in the US including skydiving, but as you most likely know, the USPA was created to keep our sport self-regulated. If the FAA stepped in to a position of direct oversite, our sport would most likely die.

Personally, through reading this thread and your opinions, it seems that you refuse to look at the real issue. Yes, you may have the best DZ in TN (I've never jumped in TN, so I can't say one way or the other), but you're hurting your own DZ by having a situation in which Coach Canidates have to pay a large sum of extra money due to the DZ's refusal to be apart of the GM. Due to this, you'll have a hard time growing Coaches at your DZ, thus you'll be left with the situation your DZ is in now (according to you) that you're loosing students due to a lack of training staff.

It all comes down to money, is the DZ willing to loose the ability to grow instructional staff at their DZ, thus loosing students and hurting the perpetual growth of the DZ; instead of simply joining the FAI recognized governing body for skydiving in the US? Then continue to work to change the program into something that could be more benifitual to other DZs around the nation?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jlmiracle 7]

I said PROBABLY, meaning there is a better way out there and we will find it.

Paying to join a program (not the organization) that you don't believe in, makes one a hypocrite.

I understand no one out there really gives a damn what goes on at our DZ and our issues with the USPA so I won't bother you guys with this anymore. All your opinions are taken into consideration.

If there is a greenie out there that want's to put this one in the garbage can, then so be it. If they want to leave up, that's fine too. I'm done. Thanks for all the responses.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.