park1231 0 #1 October 13, 2003 I know that you should always try to land against the wind but if you are forced into a situation where you must land with the wind at your back: Should you flare like you would in a "normal" landing? or should you compensate somehow for the additional forward speed? Im asing this because today I had to land going downwind and the two things I noticed was much greater forward speed and when I went to flare it was virtually ineffective. The flare I used started when my feet were about 8-10ft off the ground and was one smooth motion from no brakes to full brakes. Also is a PLF the best emergency landing method even in a situation where you have a high rate of forward speed and vertical speed upon landing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 October 13, 2003 QuoteShould you flare like you would in a "normal" landing? Yup. The flare, if done properly, should be the same no matter what the wind conditions are or your orientation to them.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 October 13, 2003 QuoteShould you flare like you would in a "normal" landing? Yes, a canopy only 'knows' airspeed, not ground speed. A downwind landing flare should be the same as a no-wind or light wind landing flare. Side note: The reason you don't have to flare as much to land in high winds is because the first part of the flare stops your downward (vertical) speed, and the second part of the flare stops your foward (horizontal) speed. That is what makes swooping possible. With a low ground speed, there is no foward ground speed to stop, and therefore you only need the first part of the flare. Or in slightly less winds, there is a little ground speed, requiring a little flare beyond the initial flare. QuoteAlso is a PLF the best emergency landing method even in a situation where you have a high rate of forward speed and vertical speed upon landing? Usually a slide will be best, similar to a high ground speed tandem landing where you lean back and slide. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #4 October 13, 2003 QuoteUsually a slide will be best, similar to a high ground speed tandem landing where you lean back and slide. Just watch that tailbone. Try lay your butt down softly as possible Blue skies IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #5 October 14, 2003 >or should you compensate somehow for the additional forward speed? All you can do is the best possible flare - just like the flare you do in no-wind conditions. People often screw up their flares when they are landing downwind. This is usually due to them perceiving they are lower than they really are (because they see the ground moving faster) and flaring too high. If you can, get your feet on the ground and start sliding before the flare finishes - that gives you the best possible chance of running it out. With enough practice you can slide to a stop. >Also is a PLF the best emergency landing method even in a situation > where you have a high rate of forward speed and vertical speed > upon landing? If you have high horizontal speed but very little vertical speed you can try "laying it down" - let your feet slide forward, and let your weight land you on the side of one of your thighs. It will make your jumpsuit dirty, but your leg/thigh can absorb a lot of friction (and some impact) without damaging anything major. If your vertical speed is high (i.e. you flared too high) then make sure you prepare for a good PLF, feet-first, but also make sure you hit sideways as you probably practiced during your student training, and collapse to absorb the impact. If you hit square, you'll likely go head over heels, and put yourself at risk for a broken neck. Whatever you do, do NOT just sit on the ground unless you're sure you can get your vertical speed to zero. Your coccyx, pelvis and spine are not good at absorbing impacts in that position, and a broken pelvis/back is a real possibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bmcd308 0 #6 October 14, 2003 Quote Whatever you do, do NOT just sit on the ground unless you're sure you can get your vertical speed to zero. Your coccyx, pelvis and spine are not good at absorbing impacts in that position, and a broken pelvis/back is a real possibility. been there, done that http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=155411#155411 ---------------------------------- www.jumpelvis.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #7 October 14, 2003 This is a matter of timing, you flare normally, without panic. If you flare normally, you can set down softly and slide or roll. What usually happens is that people overflare to stop the forward speed, then create excess lift and (nearly) stall. They then drop quickly, and still have fwd speed. Pain follows. Slide it in, on your side if possible, do not dig your feet. I rolled in a downwind once too, just threw my shoulder into it and rolled from my feet sliding position. I rolled on my side right up into the canopy (I rolled plenty). I took the downwind to avoid the corn, and my AFF examiner landed right next to me (he pulled higher and had time to get turned around). He congratulated me on the jump, not the landing. TroyTroy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #8 October 15, 2003 Huh, did you ever watch a swoop competition or a video of one? they are all done downwind. Just watch how those guys do the "touch down""George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpgod 0 #9 October 15, 2003 experience really helps but... judge the ground distance well and very gradually shallow your decent rate. almost move your toggles down in intervals but never all at once and never move them back up. it makes for a cool landing... and lots of broken bones."dude, where's my main?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CJK 0 #10 November 19, 2003 About two weeks ago I had a down wind landing. Didnt check windsocks till waaaayyyy too late As my hands started an automatic 180 hook I relised I could a) Leave my blood splattered atoms to the ants or b) burn in down wind. We had +- 10 knot wind and I'm flying a ZP.exe 170 WL 1.4. For those who dont know the ZP.exe, it MOVES. Steeper than usual wing angle etc. It gives you 5-15 meter swoop on a regular straight in approach in the right wind conditions I did a normal flare and used my heels to stop my forward speed. Ass +- 6 inches off the ground. We measured heel marks of +- 30 meters. And not a scratch on the bum. I wouldnt try this on another canopy though Grounded?!?!?! Whadda ya mean I'm "GROUNDED"?!?!?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaelflying 0 #11 November 20, 2003 fly your canopywww.skydivekzn.co.za Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #12 November 20, 2003 As you say, flare normally. Also an excellent example of the old saying -"downwind landing is preferable to a low turn" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grega 0 #13 November 20, 2003 Quotedownwind landing is preferable to a low turn" Actually you could say "Downwind landing is preferable to an upwind landing" especially if you want to swoop thought you have to have the experience and knowledge to do it, or if you're brainless helps with decision too Seriously i think it's quite important to do an intentional downwind landing from time to time, just to see that it's actually "no big deal" while low turn is a big deal! actually this practice could save your life once... By saying this, i'm not saying that a student with 30 jumps should do a downwind landing at 20mph wind! All i'm saying is that there is another way to land your canopy if you're too low and turned downwind, and we should know that. just put a smile on your face and swoop like you never swooped before, and watch for obstacles like sheeps and cows "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites andy2 0 #14 November 20, 2003 [QUOTE]Downwind landing is preferable to an upwind landing" especially if you want to swoop[/QUOTE] I've found just the opposite in my slight experience. Granted I'm only working with double fronts and the occasional few degree carving turn, but I've found learning the basics of swooping to be much easier when Im faced into the wind on landing. It might make for a shorter swoop, but it makes for a safer one, in my inexperienced opinion. I'd really like to hear what the experienced swoopers have to say about this. Although I know what the experienced ones at my DZ have said: "Learn first how to swoop accurately into the wind and then start practicing swooping downwind..." Makes a lot of common sense, why swoop downwind and have to worry about all that excess speed when your swoop is finished when you can swoop into the wind and touch down softly EVERY time (I think really important for someone who is still learning the rudimentary physics of swooping a parachute). Input? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerry81 10 #15 November 20, 2003 In my inexperienced opinion, landing in a moderate downwind can be a whole lot of fun, but, as you said, learning the basics of swooping is probably easier and safer when you're landing into the wind. However, I agree with George that you should also do an occasional downwind (and crosswind) landing to learn how it feels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grega 0 #16 November 20, 2003 WOW, you misunderstood. Of course learning to swoop upwind is almost a must. Especially in the early phases of learning. i just said that everyone should try downwind landing so they wouldn't be so scared of it that they rather make a snapping 180 turn into the wind when they're too low... about that "downwind landing is preferable to an upwind landing" was meant for those who know how to swoop and/or are competing in swoop distance... And i'm by far not among them, so i'll be quiet now and let the PRO's speak"George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites andy2 0 #17 November 20, 2003 ok we're on the exact same page then! Hehe Yeah definitely do a few downwind/crosswind landings to take the BEER out of the time you'll have to do it in a stressful situation. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #18 November 20, 2003 With you fingers crossed.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
grega 0 #13 November 20, 2003 Quotedownwind landing is preferable to a low turn" Actually you could say "Downwind landing is preferable to an upwind landing" especially if you want to swoop thought you have to have the experience and knowledge to do it, or if you're brainless helps with decision too Seriously i think it's quite important to do an intentional downwind landing from time to time, just to see that it's actually "no big deal" while low turn is a big deal! actually this practice could save your life once... By saying this, i'm not saying that a student with 30 jumps should do a downwind landing at 20mph wind! All i'm saying is that there is another way to land your canopy if you're too low and turned downwind, and we should know that. just put a smile on your face and swoop like you never swooped before, and watch for obstacles like sheeps and cows "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #14 November 20, 2003 [QUOTE]Downwind landing is preferable to an upwind landing" especially if you want to swoop[/QUOTE] I've found just the opposite in my slight experience. Granted I'm only working with double fronts and the occasional few degree carving turn, but I've found learning the basics of swooping to be much easier when Im faced into the wind on landing. It might make for a shorter swoop, but it makes for a safer one, in my inexperienced opinion. I'd really like to hear what the experienced swoopers have to say about this. Although I know what the experienced ones at my DZ have said: "Learn first how to swoop accurately into the wind and then start practicing swooping downwind..." Makes a lot of common sense, why swoop downwind and have to worry about all that excess speed when your swoop is finished when you can swoop into the wind and touch down softly EVERY time (I think really important for someone who is still learning the rudimentary physics of swooping a parachute). Input? --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #15 November 20, 2003 In my inexperienced opinion, landing in a moderate downwind can be a whole lot of fun, but, as you said, learning the basics of swooping is probably easier and safer when you're landing into the wind. However, I agree with George that you should also do an occasional downwind (and crosswind) landing to learn how it feels. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #16 November 20, 2003 WOW, you misunderstood. Of course learning to swoop upwind is almost a must. Especially in the early phases of learning. i just said that everyone should try downwind landing so they wouldn't be so scared of it that they rather make a snapping 180 turn into the wind when they're too low... about that "downwind landing is preferable to an upwind landing" was meant for those who know how to swoop and/or are competing in swoop distance... And i'm by far not among them, so i'll be quiet now and let the PRO's speak"George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #17 November 20, 2003 ok we're on the exact same page then! Hehe Yeah definitely do a few downwind/crosswind landings to take the BEER out of the time you'll have to do it in a stressful situation. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #18 November 20, 2003 With you fingers crossed.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
