problem with S/L training?

[dkf1979 0]

I'm in the S/L training program. I've made 3 jumps. And from what i'm reading i've been seeing that you really don't get much freefall lessons? Is this going to hurt my skydiving skills? Should I be thinking about maybe getting into a AFF program?

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[dkf1979 0]

I've also heard that the S/L program is out of date. What do you all think? By the way, i'm new to this forum... And i love it. All my questions answered by real people. It's great. Thanks all for the advice.

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[dterrick 0]

You gotta land yourself back on the planet no matter what you do in the sky. S/L teaches you valuable skills that AFF 'turbine babies' don't typically learn til much later - like being confortable with 3k hop n pops. The end results of an A license will be similar if not identical. By the time you're off student status in you'll be able to keep yourself in control in freefall and land safely. By 30-40 jumps or so there'll be little or no difference in overall skill in any area and you'll be looking for RW coaches anyway. I looked at it this way... for roughly the same $'s I got about 25 canopy flights under s/l instead of 12-15 for AFF. In Cessna land, that is a BIG difference. Do you want fast results , or do you want fun and time spent on the DZ?


It's all good. Remember that you're always learning no matter what your license says you know And FYI, a big reason I did s/l over PFF was because I wanted to be 'independent' in the sky.

Dave

PS Welcome to th sport and whatever you decide to do, just keep doing it until you're addicted ... or has that happened already???

Life is very short and there's no time for fussing and fighting my friend (Lennon/McCartney)

[GraficO 0]

As a former S/L instructor and jumpmaster, I believe in the merits of both S/L and AFF.

I my opinion, S/L students have a better grasp of basic stability issues than AFF students ESPECIALLY in sub-terminal air. As touched on in an earlier post, "turbine babies" lack in the areas of packing techniques, basic spotting and other core basics of skydiving.

In my opinion, AFF tends to be much like joining a karate class and getting your blue belt before you have earned your white, orange and green ones. You miss out on a lot of discipline and experience that comes with earning the ability to freefall with skill. Granted, I do like the fact that going to freefall right away does take some of the monotony out of student level skydiving and probably keeps more students from quitting because the goal of going out at the top is already reached.

In short, AFF get's you to the top quicker and probably has a better retention rate but the S/L student earns and adds experience with every jump in a much broader spectrum. Some modern DZs that teach AFF do focus on a post-AFF program for packing and canopy flight but most still do not teach the finer points of spotting. With the wonders and advancement of GPS and qulified, experienced pilots the need for most spotting techniques is unneeded... but it sure does screw ya in you go from a turbine DZ to a dot on a map with a 182... unless you trust completely the people you are jumping with to put you in the right place, your jump might as well be a crapshoot as far as your landing.

GraficO

GraficO

"A Mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Tonedog1980 0]

Man thanx for the insite on this guys. Dan and I started jumping together and naturaly have alot of the same questions. It is realy comforting to hear from former jumpmasters and current jumpmaster on issues like this. I was wondering this same thing. I just dont want to end up knowing everything there is to know about flying/landing a chute then not knowing anything about everything before that lol. Even though landing/flying the chute is a pretty important thing. But it is good to know that I am not going to miss out on valubale info on freefalling. Thanx again for the post.

Why live your life only to get to death safely? SKYDIVE!

[jeffsimpson 0]

I thought I would also thown in my 2 cents worth (though probably the least qualified person of all these posts).

I myself qualified in Scotland via the S/L system around 2.5 yrs ago and I would never go back. It definetely has it's pros and cons though.

Personally I think S/L is a great way to get your qualification .. it gives experience (canopy control, stability, all round good safety awareness) and also teaches you good stable exits (very very useful for later when you may want to leave the plane at under 3k) - in Scotland the poor weather means exits from 2200ft are common enough (never mind aircraft emergencies). The cons are definetely that, for the same jump numbers, you will be trailing your AFF collegues on your relative skills for a while but then you will be ahead on almost every other aspect of skydiving (spotting, jump mastering, canopy control etc etc).
S/L can be a more difficult way to get though the system as you have to get the feel for the air on your own. Without the helping hand of those daring AFF instructors freefall can be 'interesting' to begin with and if you have real problems with stabilty then AFF can be a much easier/safer way to go.

AFF: As said before this is almost a shortcut to skydiving - after all it may take 6 months of S/L progression and AFF can do it in a week - what does that tell you! Unless very careful many students are overconfident (a very bad thing) and careful coaching is definetely needed to drum in the dangers they pose to the others around them.
That said AFF is great for giving you the air skills (if not decent exits) quickly.

Both have their pros and cons but I say go S/L and only convert to AFF if you have problems in freefall - you will gain experience/confidence from it.

Jeff

[projanska 0]

Quote

I'm in the S/L training program. I've made 3 jumps. And from what i'm reading i've been seeing that you really don't get much freefall lessons?

Hey man, I'm exactly in the same situation with 3 S/Ls, though on currently on a winter break.

Anyways, my (Finnish) S/L program table says that the first hop'n'pop is after six successful S/Ls and each successful jump after that means more FF time, coming to 30 seconds on jump number 13 and finally 40 seconds on jump 20.

I'd guess it teaches the solo basics bit better. I'm not in a hurry considering that if I continue the sport I'll be doing hundreds or thousands of jumps.

___
"Ye Gods!"

[tombuch 0]

Each program has benefits. Why not combine them? Make a bunch of static line jumps, and then do a few freefalls with an AFF instructor. Add to your experience by visiting a wind tunnel (there are three of them in the USA right now, with a fourth expected to open soon in Perris Valley, California). If you have a chance, try visiting a drop zone with a computer based canopy control simulator called Sport ParaSim and spend some time working through malfunction and navigation issues (there are only two on civilian drop zones in the USA). I don’t want to get too commercial here, but it sounds like you have a bunch of questions beyond just “what program is best,” and there are a few outstanding books on the market to help you out.

Perhaps the most comprehensive book is called Parachuting: The Skydivers Handbook by Turoff and Poynter. It’s a solid “bible” of skydiving, now in the 9th edition. This book covers everything you might want to know from having never jumped to being fully licensed and beyond.

Another solid book is The Skydivers Survival Guide by Emerson and Antebi. This book is targeted at folks just finishing a student training program and helps with the transition to independent skydiving.

I wrote a book called JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy that is targeted at people who have never made a jump, and those with just a couple of skydives. It even has a chapter that describes the benefits of each training method (your original question). You will probably also enjoy reading the chapters on Risk and Psychology. JUMP! was just published this spring.

All three books are current, and they are each available from your local skydiving equipment store, local bookstores, and web dealers like Amazon.com. Amazon often packages several of these books with value pricing and offers free shipping of orders over USD 25.00.

There is another outstanding resource called the Skydivers Information Manual published by USPA. This 200 plus page spiral bound book is also called the SIM, and it is available from skydiving equipment vendors or directly from USPA. It is even available on the USPA web site as a FREE viewable and printable volume. The SIM includes all the rules that govern skydiving and tons of suggestions about safety and progression. There is even an outline of an Integrated Student Program (ISP) that helps instructors and students figure out how to combine parts of static line, AFF, and tandem programs to make an ideal hybrid program.

In addition to books, you will get tons of great information from old copies of Parachutist Magazine published by USPA, and from Skydiving, a monthly newspaper published independently. Your instructors probably have back copies of these publications and will be happy to share them with you. Ask around. If you are going to be sticking with the sport you will probably be joining USPA (if you live in the USA) so you will be receiving a subscription to Parachutist as part of that membership. Skydiving is also well worth a subscription.

Blue Skies,

Tom Buchanan
Instructor (AFF, SL, IAD, Tandem)
Author JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Ron 7]

Stick with S/L.

There is nothing wrong with AFF. There are several advantages:
Instant feedback during your performance.
Longer FF time to practice.
You can learn really fast. I have known people to come out and in less than a week have 20-30 jumps. However most of these folks don't know how to pack, and could not spot for the airport much less the DZ.

But you will learn to spot better with S/L.
Chances are you will really know how to pack.
You will not be afraid of low exits that you might have to do in an emergancy.
You can still jump if it is overcast at 4 grand.

And after 50 jumps no one will be able to tell the difference between the S/L guys and the AFF guys freefall skills.


For those that did learn AFF...Just like Tom said expand your world. Go to a Cessna DZ and spend some time learning to spot and packing. Hell do it just to meet new people.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[FrogNog 1]

> I've also heard that the S/L program is out of date.

So are gasoline engines and paper.

I think one of the biggest benefits of S/L is it's good for people who are scared of heights, like I was/am. (Technically, I'm not scared of being up high; I'm scared of _falling_ from up high.) Static Line keeps you closer to the ground for a while so you can get accustomed to stepping out an open door into 80 mph wind way higher off the ground than makes sense, then letting go. And for the first half of each of the first few jumps, you have a lot less to worry about than AFF. Can't leave the plane early without your JMs, can't freefall unstable, can't get tripped out by terminal airspeed or the slide on the hill, don't have to worry as much about pulling (much less stress on a practice ripcord), spot is IMO easier because everything looks bigger, etc.. Just subterminal mals and flying and landing, and that's it. Piece of cake. (Well, OK, and avoiding the special S/L potential airplane emergencies, but that's what IAD is for. )

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[lewis321 0]

I too was trained on s/l, so I am probably a little bias in my opinion. As far as s/l being outdated,mmmm I don't know. I do know we use it at our dz very successfully. Every dive builds on top of the previous one. In other words you don't have to learn the whole dive on one jump. You start with your exits and canopy control. Then you go on to prcp's, your first c/p and more canopy work. You haven't had to worry about freefall yet, that will come next with short delays. The point being that you once you move on to f/f you have got the exits down and should be competent under canopy, so all you have to learn now is in air maneuvers, and those are given to you a little at a time.
Aff does have its advantages however. We have had students with stability problems that did a few aff jumps and worked them out easily with the longer ff time.
Either way you go is going to get you to your license.
They are both good programs.

Good Luck

[CrazyDave 0]

if you want quick then change to aff you get more freefall exp. however if you want better knowledge of low altitude openings and hop & pops then stay on s/l. however AFF requires a lot of money up front

[steve1 5]

I started on static line, so I may be prejudiced in my opinions also. But,I think it's a great way to learn. You are taking smaller steps in the learning process, but that may be good. It's also a cheaper way to start jumping. I don't know if I would have started skydiving if I had to lay out all the cash involved for AFF. If my daughter decides to train, I think I'll have her go the static line route. And don't feel this method of training will hold you back. It won't.....Steve1

[champu 1]

I think it's pretty much a wash either way skills-wise, you should learn the same free-fall, canopy, and packing skills with either program on your way to your A. There's probably a greater emphasis placed on spotting in S/L programs (yelling "door", "five right/left", and "cut" is fun btw, provided it's not in the middle of february)

AFF seems to give people more instant gratification, but at most places, at almost twice the cost.

I say save your money, stick with S/L, and you'll have an easier time picking up your own jumpsuit, rig, etc.

[cruzit 0]

The biggest drawback I have seen from a S/L or IAD program is the inability of students to gain stability during their initial solo (meaning no S/L or JM deployed parachute) jumps.

S/L students tend to get frustrated and quit because of their difficulty in producing a stable body position and stable freefall. This often results in repeated jumps at the lower levels. You do enough 10 second delays and you have paid for your Level 1 AFF.

What S/L and IAD students do get, is more intensive spotting training and less aprehension getting out low.

AFF students, on the other hand, are able to get the time they need to get stable in freefall with adequate supervision and immediate feedback if there is a problem.

Don't get me wrong...I was a S/L student. But it took me a very long time to feel comfortable in freefall and I had to unlearn a lot of bad habits when I began skydiving with other people.

It would be nice if there was a program that combined the two...maybe a couple of S/L or IAD jumps, then longer supervised AFF type freefall to work on freefall skills.

Just my $.02

[Skream 0]

The biggest problem I've had with the S/L progression is moving to real freefall from the short delays. It's hard to unlearn the student arch and be in a relaxed arch. It was practically hard coded into my head a big arms out legs out student arch that I learned with the hanging exit from the 182. Always got big plusses for it, but once on to terminal freefall, I could never remember to bring my arms back far enough, first causing a lot of potato chipping, then backsliding. I think I finally got it right on my last jump (jm told me to stick my fingers in my ears... I didn't really do that, but it brought home to bring my arms back...)

Looking back, I think just one AFF jump mighta been cool just to learn to relax right in freefall, but other than that S/L has been great. I look forward to hop n pops from low altitudes to keep current in winter...

---
Michael Teator
Lexington, Kentucky

[gerryfuss 0]

I don't really want to repeat any of the above posts so heres what I'll say. You have done 3 jumps now and are having fun. If money is a problem them AFF might not fit your budget with more money in a quicker period of time. If this is the case stick with S/L. If you are like me and after 4 S/L jumps was having fun but really wanting to experience FF then Try an AFF jump, but I'll warn you , you probably will fall in love and and say fuck S/L (don't mean any disrespect to S/L). Once I had that 1st freefall there was no turning back. The canopy ride can be fun but that's coming regardless of S/L or AFF so why not put some FF time into the equation and start really experiencing the whole skydiving picture. S/lLwas fine but I will never do one again.

[dkf1979 0]

Very good points from all. My first jump was a tandem jump. So I have experienced some freefall. I guess though, it being tandem.... My instructor was mostly doing all the work. Although I felt like I could almost naturally feel which ways to move my arms or legs in order to compensate for an unwanted turn. Maybe I'll take another tandem jump or 2 if I feel uncomfortable with my longer delays.

http://bodypilot.bounceme.net

[Jclende795 0]

Hey I Have made 3 IAD Jumps. I felt comfortable starting there to make sure exiting an aircraft was for me. I am switching over to AFF and worried about only one thing, freefall. Which is cool.. Im not going to be wondering what its like to steer a canopy or the opening shock. I guess I am doing a hybrid of both programs.

Ryan

[Antithesis 0]

I completely agree. I will also bet that a static liner will outland any aff student after graduation 9 out of 10 times.

I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky

[LivingInClip 0]

This thread is extremely helpful. See, I have not done any jumps yet, but I will be doin' my first around the 1st of December at SkydivingKy.com . I was confused on to if it was best to AFF or S/L first. As much as I want to experience the sensation of free-falling, I would also prefer to have better skill / control over the things that are happening. After reading this thread, I think I will go the S/L route and maybe throw in a tandem jump here and there , if I really have the desire for freefalling.

I would rather be comfortable with my skills and have more skills, than jump ahead of myself.

[AndyMan 7]

I'll tell you a story, which goes back to when I was a student. It's one of those "when I was your age, when our model t's broke down..." stories.

I learned through a Tandem-AFF progresion. I was living in Toronto, and driving to the US every weekend, because this DZ had both an Otter and did AFF... Both of which I couldn't get at the Canadian DZ's near Toronto.

I was just barely off AFF, I think I had 15 jumps or so, didn't even have my 'a' license when we went up to Skydive Toronto to jump for the day. For those that don't know, Skydive Toronto is a static line factory. It's pretty much all they do there, they fly crappy planes and throw students out on S/L.

I met some of the students going through the S/L program, and they literally were green with envy that at 15 jumps I was able to not only jump on my own, but jump with people (who happened to be AFFI's). They were mind-blown that you could actually get freefall on your first jump... See, they'd tasted freefall for brief moments in their 3-second delays, and they knew they wanted more.

The next weekend, five of them showed up at the AFF program in that New York turbine dropzone. They didn't even know AFF was an option, because this S/L factory didn't offer it, and bad-mouthed all the people who did. The students felt they'd been cheated.

AFF definately isn't for everyone. Some people can't learn quickly on the accelerated regime. Some people end up having to repeat multiple levels which can get real expensive real quick... But I think those people are the minority. For the other people, the freefall they get early in the progression is the hook that keeps them in skydiving. "It's the freefall, stupid". as the saying goes.

Both AFF and S/L are perfectly valid, perfectly safe ways to learn how to jump. If you're fit, confident, and well-coordinated, AFF is a hell of a lot more fun.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[bluegremlin 0]

in the UK on the static line the 6th jump is your first freefall, true only 3 - 5 seconds, but by your 8th jump your onto 10, 10th jump your onto 15 seconds and after that its done mainley on alti and you start learning freefall skills. and all for an average of £35 per jump (Except the first one). i dont think i would like AFF as it seames like you get thrown into learning everything in just a few jumps rather than letting you saver every jump.

[DeNReN 0]

While I cant really comment on S/L programs....or AFF for that matter......I started with a IAD program and did my 1st top floor solo at jump#18 (could have been at jump#14 but winter came)....

Here's the big thing for IAD's or S/L vs AFF or APF

$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Myself at 33 jumps...total cost....$1455(Can)...12 of my jumps have been top floor...thats roughly $1050 (USD).

Mind you....my skills in freefall are lacking compared to most AFF/APF students with the same jump numbers I'm sure.....however...I am quite cofident under canopy(stood up 32 of 33 landings)

There are pros and cons to all methods.But I am quite happy with my choice to go the IAD way (AFF was avaible at another local DZ,just way more expensive).

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

in the UK on the static line the 6th jump is your first freefall, true only 3 - 5 seconds, but by your 8th jump your onto 10, 10th jump your onto 15 seconds and after that its done mainley on alti and you start learning freefall skills. and all for an average of £35 per jump (Except the first one). i dont think i would like AFF as it seames like you get thrown into learning everything in just a few jumps rather than letting you saver every jump.

I have 6 AFF jumps. Still at L4. All of these jumps have been from 13,5-15k, so we're getting a good 50-60 seconds of freefall to 5500ft. And I'm still complaining that I only get about 30 useful seconds of freefall to work with. If I were only getting 15 seconds, I don't think I'd ever get my legs right.

As for canopy skills, I don't see a difference in how learning should happen. Do twice as many SL jumps, sure that's twice as many flights and landings on the chute. But you're still doing 25 jumps, min, for the A license on either system. A post AFF student is still under radio if needed - I haven't used mine for the last 2.

Cost is a big delta, though I don't know if any of the local DZs even offer S/L anymore, since the tandems generally jump at 15k and they are the cashcow. For the fun factor, and the added sense of security having the AFFIs along, I certainly prefer it.

You're right though in that you have a lot to do on the jumps. L2 seems like it would take an eternity to do, and L4 is the same jump but unattached. But after that level, I think (and hope) it gets easier as you have the base skill set.

Now if only the weather would clear up.