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schattenjaeger

I see all these topics about how students and younger jumpers...

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can get offended or even mad at their instructors for various advice, especially the type that holds them back from something they wanna do(downsize, high performance landings, what have you...)I was just reading a topic on another forum on this site where an instructor was complaining about studentS who wouldn't listen to his advice, make a low hook turn or something similar, and regret not paying more heed. Anyways, I read these topics and think, damn, my instructors must really love my attitude then! It frightens me that people can look at this as anything other than what it is, something that we as humans just really shouldn't by all rights be able to do! I can KINDA understand someone with thousands of jumps viewing it in a different light, but younger jumpers like myself, I mean, come on, you can't ever forget that you ARE JUMPING FROM AN AIRPLANE! You just CAN'T be good at it without raw experience, it's not something that can come naturally to us, because we can't do it naturally!

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Some people do not realize their mortality till something happens to them.

Some it happens to sooner than to others.

Some people read it on the internet and KNOW everything there is to know about the subject. Knowledge is a good thing... but thinking that replaces practice and experience can be deadly...

Just my $.02

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I agree!

I'm downsizing to a 210 because of rental costs (the 210 can be borrowed, the 230 must be rented for $65 a day) and I called and talked to THREE of my AFF instructors, all of whom have seen my landings, to make sure I'd be okay on that canopy. Every single one said the 210 should be fine, since my wingloading on the 210 would be .75

I called them. I asked. If they'd said no, I wouldn't have argued. I would have thanked them for their advice and continued to rent the 230 whenever I had the cash. Its much better to be on the ground and safe than jumping in a situation that is not safe. I'd rather stay grounded today and not hurt myself than jump in an unsafe manner and get hurt or worse! The sky will always be there. I have a vested interest in making sure I will be there too.

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There is a very large "unknown" factor in this sport which many times takes a while really to sink in. It involves not only that which we don't know, but also (and more importantly) that which we don't know we don't know.

Instructors have (theoretically) been around long enough to know what evils lurk behind the various doors a new skydiver has yet to open, knowledge which they will usually dispense readily to whomever chooses to listen. Unfortunately, there are those that choose not to listen. Often, this is caused by the person's belief that they personally feel experienced enough to do what they want to do, and don't know that there may be new dangers that they haven't heard of yet. They know what they're doing, and that's that. Instructors who try to explain to them what they are getting themselves into are then looked at as preachy and "just trying to spoil my fun."

Since skydiving is such an individual sport, experience is in large part left to the mind of the skydiver. Sure, someone can tell me that I'm experienced or not experienced enough to, say, start doing hook turns, but they won't be in the saddle with me the first time I grab that riser. It is ultimately the mind of the individual that determines what happens on a skydive, preachy instructor or not.

Matt
-----

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Hah, ever since I saw Mike bounce off the runway and mess up his leg on a crosswind landing an hour before my 3rd jump you'd better believe I pay attention to my jm's advice. Maybe those guys need a little dose of reality.
Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

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Just try and keep that attitude.

Most people listen till around 70-100 jumps.
By 300 jumps they think know everything and will not listen.
500-1000 they have some knowledge and they start to listen again.

Its normal....But I am sick of it.

I listened to everyone when I had 300 jumps.

I have had so many 300 jump wonders tell me to shut up and they know what they are doing it really gets old.

I have started walking up to ther ones that didn't listen right after they get hurt and ask "Feel stupid? Wish you would have listened?" For this they call me an asshole.....But they could have prevented it by not being an idiot.

Here is a hint...One that has worked for me for a long time....When I guy with much more experience walks up and tells you something....Fucking listen.

It might have something to do with the fact that when I was comming up most folks didn't give advice to the new guys....Today it seems like most try...But get blown off...I kinda understand why the old guys when I was new didn't try to help much.They probley got blown off so much and fiqured "Screw em".
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I have had so many 300 jump wonders tell me to shut up and they know what they are doing it really gets old.



What is with us 300 jump wonders? This is the second post today that we are being trashed!:P

Sounds like SJ has a great attitude. Try to infect others with it.


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I listened to everyone when I had 300 jumps.



I "live" at a smaller DZ and I quickly learned that all Skydivers are not created equal and many 5,6,800 jump wonders can be just as "know it all" as the low time wonders. So whereas I listen to everyone, I don't heed everyone. I have selected one or two people whom I trust implicitely in all things skydiving. Whatever I hear is run passed either one or both of them before implementation, and their opinions tempered with my common sense make the final judgement.

Not all of us 300 jump wonders are idiots:)
EsG
S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

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A friend of mine named Johnny is 65 yo, some years in sport, and flies a big old square. He lands safely.

He told me "It's better to walk a long way than to get carried a short way."

It goes along with the primary safety rule "Don't f--in' die." If someone tells you that if you do , you will die. Listen to them, think about it, then ask your S&TA.

That is my rule for advice.

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I see all these topics about how students and younger jumpers... - NEW Quote | Reply

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I see all these topics about how students and younger jumpers...can get offended or even mad at their instructors for various advice, especially the type that holds them back from something they wanna do(downsize, high performance landings, what have you...)I was just reading a topic on another forum on this site where an instructor was complaining about studentS who wouldn't listen to his advice, make a low hook turn or something similar, and regret not paying more heed.

Unfortuanately last year we had one of these turn fatal. 100-200 jump wonder could stand up his current Sabre 150 much more than 50% of the time and decided to jump a smaller Stilletto,135/120 (not sure) and had asked for advice on hook turns. The S&TA and others had told him not to attempt hp landings until he could master basic landings. He did the classic "hey watch this, the hook from hell". 180 degree hook to double fronts to impact from just over hangar high. Unfortunately, he was too good to listen and it cost him his life. Sad.












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The only thing I worry about is annoying people with my constant questions. None of my whuffo friends will even consider jumping out of an airplane, so I can regale them with tales of my all-too-few AFF experiences, and they're still impressed.
Seriously, walking away from a landing is enough for me, the only people I want to prove anything to is my JM's, prove that I can be an attentive student and learn from their experience.

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Never worry about annoying people. If someone is a jerk when you are asking questions find someone else who is more amiable. BUT you might want to think about who you are asking too.

Often it's the quieter, more low-key individual who has more actual useful knowledge and is willing to share when asked then the loud-mouthed, know it all. The funny thing is until you get more knowledge it's sometimes hard to recognize that the know it all is full of shit.

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Many older jumpers (like myself) may have started a little later in life, and had a few more close calls than some of the the younger folks starting out. When you've had close calls climbing, with motorcycles, in the water, etc., you tend to exhibit a little more caution than people who haven't done a wider range of things for a longer period.

If you're smart, you won't do what Ron outlined above...keep listening, and more imprtantly, figure out WHO to listen to and why. The best attitude you can take, IMHO, is to always try to remember what you felt like with 10 jumps, and keep that feeling alive in your mind...it may keep YOU alive.
Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

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I'd rather listen to everything every other jumper has to say at my DZ than listen to my bones crack.




That goes ditto for me. If I have learned only one thing in my life then that is that experience knows. I believe that those who can are best to teach and they are the ones I listen to, plus throw in some common sense. And for me if my S&TA or former instructors tell me I should not do something well I trust them. I want to have longevitity in this sprot and am in no rush tolearn or know everything. All things will comes in there own time.

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I have had so many 300 jump wonders tell me to shut up and they know what they are doing it really gets old.



Just curious as to when this statement ever ends. Seems like "# jump wonder" can be said for anyone with less jumps than he who is speaking. I understand you have 2000+ jumps, Ron, and that is very respectable. But, why so little respect for people with say 300 jumps? Why are they called "# jump wonder" ?

Also, I understand about wanting to be safe... but a .75 w/l is just not something i'd be willing to stay on. It is boring. There is a dz here in Fla that banned me from jumping there unless I got a larger canopy. The next size up i'd load at .75:1,.. .um, sorry, no. I feel just fine at my 1:1 w/l, and have found that many other instructors agree with me.

Angela. (100 jump wonder)



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Just try and keep that attitude.

Most people listen till around 70-100 jumps.
By 300 jumps they think know everything and will not listen.
500-1000 they have some knowledge and they start to listen again.

Its normal....But I am sick of it.

I listened to everyone when I had 300 jumps.

I have had so many 300 jump wonders tell me to shut up and they know what they are doing it really gets old.

I have started walking up to ther ones that didn't listen right after they get hurt and ask "Feel stupid? Wish you would have listened?" For this they call me an asshole.....But they could have prevented it by not being an idiot.

Here is a hint...One that has worked for me for a long time....When I guy with much more experience walks up and tells you something....Fucking listen.

It might have something to do with the fact that when I was comming up most folks didn't give advice to the new guys....Today it seems like most try...But get blown off...I kinda understand why the old guys when I was new didn't try to help much.They probley got blown off so much and fiqured "Screw em".



Hell yeah, well said.

I've done one or two less-than-intelligent things (landing downwind accidentally for one) and I do have an ego. But if someone with more experience than me, in any field (work, hobbies whatever) gives me advice or a scolding, I pay attention, even though I may hate the guy in question. I'm 28 now and got over my the worst bit of my ego some years ago.

It's all about remaining objective. The argument or advice should be seen without the influence of the personality that delivers it. Pretty hard to do at all times, but worth striving for.

I've only got 80 jumps and I started out in june. My biggest fear is getting cocky. Skydiving is empowering and it's easy to have it run away with you. I just hope and pray that I'll be able to maintain a reasonable humble and objective personality as my jump numbers grow.

For those that refuse to listen - Darwin is waiting. However hard it may sound, that is the ultimate truth. Egoes and situations where death might be an outcome don't mix easily.

It's odd. At times I sorta think "shouldn't have started skydiving, coz it may kill me". It's just too damned good to not do though. Enriches my life. So, I hope I'll continue to pay attention to the ones who've been there. In the end, I jsut wanna live a good life and *live*, and these guys and girls will help me do just that.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

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When I started jumping I had the same attitude - What's wrong with this? The rules are stupid and I'm safe... The longer I am in the sport the more I realise that there is a lot I do not know and that (most of) the rules are made by more experienced people to protect me. Would I do some of the stuff now that I did then? No. But I will always try to pass on advice so that people can enjoy the sport and try new and crazy stuff but do it safely.
I'm drunk, you're drunk, lets go back to mine....

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Just curious as to when this statement ever ends. Seems like "# jump wonder" can be said for anyone with less jumps than he who is speaking



Anytime you do or say something stupid, and act like you know what you are doing and ignore advice from people with more experience....You are a XXX-jump wonder. So it never does end, till the know it all attitude ends.

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I understand you have 2000+ jumps, Ron, and that is very respectable. But, why so little respect for people with say 300 jumps? Why are they called "# jump wonder" ?



I have 3,000 jumps;) don't take 1,000 jumps from me here. Who said I don't resect folks with 300 jumps? I don't respect folks with 300 jumps that don't listen to advice and act like they know it all. They are called a "jump wonder" since its a wonder how they ever got that many jumps since they already know it all, and don't listen. Untill you get 100 jumps I still expect you to die. Untill you get 500 jumps I expect you to quit anyday.

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Also, I understand about wanting to be safe... but a .75 w/l is just not something i'd be willing to stay on. It is boring



And here is why you would be called a jump wonder....You say its boring...Makes it sound like you already know it all.

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There is a dz here in Fla that banned me from jumping there unless I got a larger canopy



I was told it was two DZ's and that it was due to something you did and the fact that you would not listen is why they banned you. I don't know many DZ's that will flat out ban you unless you continue to do dangerous things and will not listen. In fact I think you showed up at ZHills and claimed to have a Specter in your rig when in fact you had a Stiletto.

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The next size up i'd load at .75:1,.. .um, sorry, no. I feel just fine at my 1:1 w/l, and have found that many other instructors agree with me.



And you ahd others telling you that you were dangerous....I can shop around till I find someone to agree with just about any choice I want to make.

There is a thread in Incidents where you are giving canopy advice...And then you argue with another guy for two posts....Then you admit that he might be right, and then say you have less than 100 jumps....

At 100 jumps you are giving canopy advice after you have been kicked off at least one DZ due to canopy flight???????
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I thing you're referring to the post about flying in brakes, right? I don't think that I was giving any harmful advice. I was just writing how I judged things. If people don't share what they learn than how will anyone learn anything? Just because I don't have 1000 jumps doesn't mean that I don't know shit. Obviously, there is a lot for me to learn, but it doesn't mean I can't share information the same as everyone else on this site does. It isn't like I go around recommending people buy napkin canopies or do hook turns off of student status.

Well, it was one dz who called a bunch of dzs. I don't want to argue about what was said that I did wrong or whatever. I didn't do anything dangerous at the dz. I was told that I landed too close to the plane. The winds were too high and I probably shouldn't have jumped in them, but I handled it fine and landed without incident.

The other dz I had a landing issue at was at 30 jumps after a canopy class. I made a jump in the morning that freaked me out (see incidents search for a post by me) and I didn't get out of line twists until 900 feet and ended up crosswind on final and landed on the runway. This was obviously not an everyday event and could've been prevented if i'd not screwed up so many things in the air (should've pulled higher, should've cut away... etc). Everyone has bad days... luckily, again, I landed without incident.

I thought your profile said 2000 jumps when I posted that, i'm not taking 1000 jumps from ya;)

Well, my canopy flight is fine, I don't need a .75w/l. Maybe you think I do, and it is fine with me if that is what you think.

Anyhow, if you want to keep this going, we can do so via pm as to not make this a personal post about me.
Thanks.
Angela.



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something I learned in martial arts... listen to the instructor. if you don't you're going to get hurt. same thing applies to skydiving.



In martial arts the one who's going to hurt you if you don't listen is usually the instructor. Hopefully that's not how your skydiving instructors work.;)

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