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airtwardo

Should 'PRO' Requirements be Increased?

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Then how do you explain all of the military recuitment teams?

Certainly DEMOs do have an effect when it comes to promoting the sport.

BTW, I totally agree that insurance is just another thing that gets passed on to the client. Not that big of a deal and actually sort of levels the playing field between different DEMO teams -- not between a DEMO team and some other of act, but then again, that's apples and oranges.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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I guess my point was that the military think it brings people into a hell of a lot bigger commitment that simply doing a tandem or AFF.

DEMOs work. They -do- bring people to the DZ if that's what you want them to do.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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The USPA is a ".org" not a ".com" or a ".gov", and I see the demo-jumps as a business venture. The USPA should not be in the business of subsidizing the demo-jumper's liability insurance. If these demo-jumpers want to involve themselves in this high risk low return business then they should charge their sponsors enough to cover the liability policy too!

Personally, I don't buy into the fantasy that demo-jumps generate enough whuffo interest in the sport to cover the financial risks given our current tort system. These days, anybody who is curious about the sport would simply do a google search.



***
The USPA isn't in the 'business' of subsidizing the Demo jumpers liability insurance.
It also isn't in the Real Estate business nor the Museum business...yet these all seem to be issues of concern with the board of directors.

It's been covered at length already in this and other threads...but to quickly recap,
for your information...there would be no general membership insurance without the demonstration insurance.
In fact, the general membership policy is actually a rider ON the demo policy...
not the other way around as you might be thinking.

To address your "High Risk" comment...
There have been far and away more General Membership claims than Demo claims...

And again for your informational purposes...
According the Skydivers Information Manual...

Section 7: Exhibition Jumping and Rating

Section Summary:
A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators.
One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport.

...That's from the SIM
I guess maybe they ARE in the demo promotion business!










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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The military teams have the UCMJ to deal with their Peacocks, and insurance isn't an issue for the DoD.

***

ROTFLMAO! :ph34r:

Again not to get into too lengthy of a discussion here because it seems you may not be as well informed on the subject as you believe yourself to be...

The major military teams have training and requirements
that are very much higher than anything required to
get a PRO Rating.

They are self insured through the DOD but most
ALSO partake in the coverage offered through
the USPA.

And the liability of their teams is a concern...

It, like most things in the military get a
cost / benefit analysis...
and by the number of military team currently doing demonstration parachute jumps...
I would surmise that they believe it to be worth the risk.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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In fact, the general membership policy is actually a rider ON the demo policy...not the other way around as you might be thinking.


This is a defective approach at reducing expenses!

Quote

To address your "High Risk" comment...
There have been far and away more General Membership claims than Demo claims...


But the resulting general member claims are minimal when compared to the demo's claims, right?

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...That's from the SIM. I guess maybe they ARE in the demo promotion business!


This was a good idea in an age of poor communication. However, with the Internet someone can easily find the DZ nearest them in just a few minutes. I would like to believe that most DZO(s) use a website today rather than ads in the sports section of the local paper.

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You almost never have to advertise for people that are looking for your service.

What a DEMO does is exposes people to skydiving that weren't looking to make skydives, but probably would if motivated.

So, guy goes to a NASCAR event, not thinking about skydiving, sees the flag fly in on a DEMO jumper and thinks, "hey, that looks like fun".

That's what a DEMO does.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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You almost never have to advertise for people that are looking for your service.

What a DEMO does is exposes people to skydiving that weren't looking to make skydives, but probably would if motivated.

So, guy goes to a NASCAR event, not thinking about skydiving, sees the flag fly in on a DEMO jumper and thinks, "hey, that looks like fun".

That's what a DEMO does.

***
And as a Professional Demo Jumper, I make it a point
to either have local DZ info on hand to distribute to interested parties...
or at least give the SKYDIVE phone number...
and USPA info.
And encourage all other demo jumpers to do the same!

Quick comment on your "Apples to Oranges"
comment Paul...

It's an accurate analogy, but not a true one.

By that I mean, when this whole issue came up
I started doing a lot of research and was absolutely dumbfounded to find that an Air Show pilot pays
less than 1/10th the premium I do for
the same coverage!!

A lot of questions I have concerning our present
coverage have been side stepped and ignored...

The company the USPA is currently talking to, I had contacted 4 months prior...
Just within the past two weeks have they finally
gotten the past claim info that I have been trying to
gather since before the last BOD meeting.

The representative I spoke with, who is very aviation savvy...
thought our Demo insurance will in all likelihood be
1/2 what it currently is.

There are several issues under the scope
and I for one am wondering WTF is going on here.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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This is a defective approach at reducing expenses!

Quote


I don't think you understand the policy...
It's the ONLY cost effective way for the organization to
offer gereral membership benefits


Quote

But the resulting general member claims are minimal when compared to the demo's claims, right?


Wrong.

In fact it's the opposite.
What I've been told is...
An insurance carrier looks at what it refers to
as 'significant claims' against a policy.
What a significant claim in general terms is,
a claim paid out that is in excess of 50% of the
coverage amount for that incident.
For the PRO policy there is one that falls into
that category...
The general membership policy has dozens!

Another way to illustrate the point is that
our current carrier has paid out less than
1/2 of what they have taken in as premiums.
The lions share of those pay outs have been
toward the general membership policy claims.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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This is a defective approach at reducing expenses!


Quote

I don't think you understand the policy...
It's the ONLY cost effective way for the organization to offer gereral membership benefits


You're correct, I don't understand the logic being applied here. The problem I see with a group policy is that there is little incentive for a DZO to reduce risk at their DZ such as bury the power lines, don't park the neighbor's King Air near the landing area, remove barbed-wire fences or mark them, etc., in an effort to reduce the expense of claims. Maybe I'm wrong, but if the DZO were purchasing their own policies they would be much more attentive to potential hazards. The group policy opens the door to a tragedy of the commons situation. For example, a large employer's health care policy forbids discrimination regarding obesity. Since the expense is spread through the group little incentive exists for the obese individual to reduce weight.

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I'm a little confused, 'twardo. At the beginning of this thread you were saying that high claims against demo jumpers were leading to a cancellation of the demo insurance - now you seem to claiming that it is general membership claims which are responsible... So maybe the PRO rating was working?

Did the claims information you received change your understanding of the situation?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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I'm a little confused, 'twardo. At the beginning of this thread you were saying that high claims against demo jumpers were leading to a cancellation of the demo insurance - now you seem to claiming that it is general membership claims which are responsible... So maybe the PRO rating was working?

Did the claims information you received change your understanding of the situation?

***

YOUR CONFUSED! [:/]

I haven't been able to get a 'straight' answer from the organization any almost anything concerning the present policy!!

Yes...and NO
from what I've been recently told...
by insurance carriers anyway.

NOT BY USPA!

What they look at in determining policy costs
are the 'significant' claims.
And by that standard....
the pro policy is less of a risk that the general
membership policy.

Now I was told by various members of the USPA
organization that the PRO policy has had more
payouts $ wise in recent years than the general
membership policy....

But then that statement was qualified / retracted
when I began doing further research and asking
more in depth questions.

I truly don't know the answer....
But from what the rep for the 'new' insurance company told me at ICAS...
The general membership policy is / was the higher risk...greater drain end of the overall policy.

Why these facts are such a 'secret' is beyond me...

I'm happy that the USPA finally got all the past claim info together and is seeking other options...
but that information still isn't available to us the members...
or for that matter, even members on the BOD seeking other avenues to pursue in regard to coverage.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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