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airtwardo

Should 'PRO' Requirements be Increased?

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>Yet despite all the skills of NASCAR drivers, they still have accidents
> during races! Does that mean that they are incompetent? Does that
> mean that even more regulation is necessary?

If there were so many accidents that tracks had to shut down because they couldn't afford insurance and/or the liability of hosting a NASCAR event - yes, you'd have an argument that NASCAR drivers are, as a whole, not competent enough to race safely.

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If there were so many accidents that tracks had to shut down because they couldn't afford insurance and/or the liability of hosting a NASCAR event - yes, you'd have an argument that NASCAR drivers are, as a whole, not competent enough to race safely.



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Which is what has happened / is happening to us...

In retrospect;

The program ending is a result of "US" failing it!

Discussion as to Raising PRO requirements
is now a somewhat moot point...

What "we" as Professional Demonstration Jumpers
should be focusing on is,
possibly structuring a program that will allow for
continuing this area of Sport Parachuting
that I for one feel is an important component
of the overall skydiving industry.

Safe, public parachute demonstrations are significant
in that it is positive exposure to the masses,
that if done properly...

Generate interest in our sport, and shed a positive light
on our at times misunderstood culture.












~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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If there were so many accidents that tracks had to shut down because they couldn't afford insurance and/or the liability of hosting a NASCAR event - yes, you'd have an argument that NASCAR drivers are, as a whole, not competent enough to race safely.



That's not really a good comparison to skydiving. NASCAR has multi-millions of dollars in funding, from numerous big-name sponsors. Skydivers have none of that. NASCAR has the ability to absorb a lot of lawsuits, and keep on going, business as usual. Skydiving is a much smaller, poorer community, and can't take many financial hits without serious impact.

So I don't think it's the impact of insurance upon the industry that determines its degree of safety. You could have an industry that hurts thousands of people, but because of being well-funded, is not threatened with shutdown by the injuries. Example: the auto industry, where 40,000 people die every year in traffic accidents.

A better measure of comparative safety would be the number of people getting hurt, both participants and spectators, per capita. That would be the objective way to measure safety. In other words, the economic impact of insurance payouts on the business is irrelevant to judging their safety record.

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***Example: the auto industry, where 40,000 people die every year in traffic accidents.


The auto industry does not kill 40,000 people every year, drivers who lack the skill and judgment to drive safely kill 40,000 drivers every year. And shit does not happen unless you have shit in your planing.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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The auto industry does not kill 40,000 people every year.



I didn't say they did. I offered them as an example of an industry that gets sued a lot because of traffic accidents with their vehicles, yet they have the income to survive the lawsuits.

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drivers who lack the skill and judgment to drive safely kill 40,000 drivers every year. And shit does not happen unless you have shit in your planing.



That is true. But I'm addressing the fact that often accidents happen even to people who have their shit together.

If your brakes were to fail suddenly and unexpectedly causing you to have an accident, then would it be your fault for not knowing your brakes were going to fail?

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Well I see that rather than admit that sometimes accidents happen to competent people,



***
I think the point trying to be made is..

Yes, accidents sometimes happen to competent people.

But truly competent people shouldn't have an issue with their
high competence being tested, and certified.

Airline Captains do it twice a year...
The 'Biannual...you bet your career, check ride'

Those 'pencil whipped' PROs may be the ones
tending to argue of unnecessary regulation.

The undeniable fact is that a whole lot of
incompetent people screwed up on demos,
ultimately ending the liability insurance program.

Skydivers are but a small tiny fraction of the overall population..

And demo jumpers a small fraction of THAT subgroup...

Statically, it's extremely unlikely that ALL
or even MOST those claims for damage and injury
were made by highly qualified demonstration professionals...
...that "Murphy" just happened to 'Dump Poop' on.


There are just too many guys out here that have been
doing this for to long with no problems...

I've been doing 'High Profile' as they're called,
demos for over 20 years without a scratch...

and I'm a rookie compared to Sparky!

I agree...
Bad Things can Happen to Good People,

But not that often...and not to that dollar cost, extent!










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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***Example: the auto industry, where 40,000 people die every year in traffic accidents.


The auto industry does not kill 40,000 people every year, drivers who lack the skill and judgment to drive safely kill 40,000 drivers every year. And shit does not happen unless you have shit in your planing.



www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005X2CK/103-6120446-1385443?v=glance
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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***Example: the auto industry, where 40,000 people die every year in traffic accidents.


The auto industry does not kill 40,000 people every year, drivers who lack the skill and judgment to drive safely kill 40,000 drivers every year. And shit does not happen unless you have shit in your planing.



www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005X2CK/103-6120446-1385443?v=glance


I am old enough to remember when he first wrote the book. I also drove a corvair for 2 years and 50,000 miles with out incident. Like I said, skill and judgment can and does make a big difference. But we were not talking about poorly made cars. We we talking about people without the needed skill and judgment making demos. Big difference.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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***Like I said, skill and judgment can and does make a big difference. But we were not talking about poorly made cars. We we talking about people without the needed skill and judgment making demos. Big difference
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I introduced this topic on rec.skydiving a found one or maybe two supporters. The rest of the replies were flames. [:/]

It seems to me that older jumpers are more serious about demos. The younger crowd looks at exhibition parachuting with the same rebellious attitude as skateboarding through public malls, drag racing on public streets and base jumping from downtown high-rises. It's an attitude of "You can't tell me what I can do or when I can do it."

I continue to maintain a belief that there is a difference between a parachutist and a skydiver.;)

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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The younger crowd looks at exhibition parachuting with the same rebellious attitude as skateboarding through public malls, drag racing on public streets and base jumping from downtown high-rises.



***

Hummmm...

2 out of 3,
If I could only learn to skateboard....

I'd be a 'young dude'!! B|;):)
But seriously Ron,

With the insurance going away,
anything in the area of changing the
requirements now would be a case
of too little too late.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Ron,
Judging from your lic. #, just guessing of course, I would say you are one of the older, more mature, jumpers.:P:P Thats the same attitude that made me give up skiing.B|



Well, older anyway. First jump in 1963, last 1999. Learned how from the USAF Combat Control guys at Hurlburt Field FL. I was just ATC and got out in 65. The 50th Anniversary of CCT and annual reunion is the end of this month. I'll be joining all my old buds except one, Chuck Paradise. He was KIA in 67.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Well, older anyway. First jump in 1963, last 1999. Learned how from the USAF Combat Control guys at Hurlburt Field FL. I was just ATC and got out in 65. The 50th Anniversary of CCT and annual reunion is the end of this month. I'll be joining all my old buds except one, Chuck Paradise. He was KIA in 67.
<><



***

AND!

I might add...

A 'Former' member of The Liberty Parachute Team!!!

(Still keepin' yer slot warm!)

...I still fondly recall drilling you on the Night Pyro stuff!
;):)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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***

AND!

I might add...

A 'Former' member of The Liberty Parachute Team!!!

(Still keepin' yer slot warm!)

...I still fondly recall drilling you on the Night Pyro stuff!
;):)


I still have the video of the Memphis Demo when JT rigged your night flare with aluminum tape causing it to detonate like a mortar sending the burning magnesuim up at YOU and the CANOPY. The adrenalin was running high that night. :D;)
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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I still have the video of the Memphis Demo when JT rigged your night flare with aluminum tape causing it to detonate like a mortar sending the burning magnesuim up at YOU and the CANOPY. The adrenalin was running high that night.

***

Yeah...

That one got me a bit EXCITED! :o

"I love the smell of melting F111 in the evening....
reminds me of......
MEMPHIS!" ;)

As I recall...that first beer went down real FAST! B|











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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What would be your proposal?

How would it effect the realities of actual DEMOs and other commercial work?

Are most (any) of the issues surrounding problems with DEMOs actually the result of lax standards for aquire a PRO Rating or (as is my guess) mostly a problem with judgement at the actual DEMO itself?
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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I personally don't have a proposal per say...

I began this discussion some time back to
generate thoughtful interaction...

From what I understand the organization itself is
looking at imposing stronger regulation and requirements,
in line with what is required to hold other types of instructional type ratings.

I have some thoughts on the subject...
and have voiced them in this thread earlier.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Judgement can not be regulated. The FAA has tried for years with no success.

The ONLY thing that can (or should) be done is education.

More stringent practical test standards (100 dead center stand up landing?) are not the way.

Protectionist fees are not the way either.

What I think -might work- would be a concept more along the lines of what riggers do -- an apprenticeship.

Allow a person to get their PRO Rating under the current system, but to be able to be a DEMO Organizer might be something additional.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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The USPA is a ".org" not a ".com" or a ".gov", and I see the demo-jumps as a business venture. The USPA should not be in the business of subsidizing the demo-jumper's liability insurance. If these demo-jumpers want to involve themselves in this high risk low return business then they should charge their sponsors enough to cover the liability policy too!

Personally, I don't buy into the fantasy that demo-jumps generate enough whuffo interest in the sport to cover the financial risks given our current tort system. These days, anybody who is curious about the sport would simply do a google search.

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