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ChasingBlueSky

A thought for Newbies Giving Advice

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Thanks for the replys, I do feel much better after reading the last one due to the fact that when I first came across this forum about 2 hours ago I spent the first hour and a half reading through the incident forum trying to educate myself on the dangers of this sport.( other than the most obvious one of falling through the sky at 120 mph). I'm still excited about my upcomming tandom and I guess i'll know after I touch down if i'm hooked or not.



"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

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Take a look at THIS thread. Almost half of the 288 people to respond have witnessed a fatality.

I've been jumping for 5 years and I honestly haven't even witnessed a serious injury. Of course that's only because I haven't been around on the days people have been hurt or killed where I jump.

Fatalities don't happen on a daily basis. At any given dropzone, they don't necessarily even happen yearly. But skydiving is a small world. After years of jumping, skydivers have friends all over the place. When someone dies, a lot of skydivers have lost a friend.

So, yeah, I'm not looking forward to losing friends in the future. The longer I'm in the sport, the more likely it's going to happen. But you can't let the possiblity bother you if skydiving is something you want to do. I'm far more afraid of killing or injuring myself than I am of the idea that someone I know is going to die.

The only way to ensure you won't lose a friend is to make no friends. I don't think it'd be worth it.

Dave

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I think it's far more imporant to teach people where to GET advice



Yes, but given the choice I would say get it from people who are qualified, not from parrots who just say what they are told without understanding the whole picture.

Look at I think post 59 of this thread for several examples of where well ment advice did harm, or just complicated the issues.

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you can't control who will be giving advice here or anywhere else on the internet. I think this thread will get more people thinking about where they get their advice than it will stop people from posting bad advice. And I don't think that's so bad.



I think thats great...And I am going to continue to call BS when I see advice that is wrong (a lot like Kallend blasts me when I use the wrong Newtons Law) And I am going to contiune to state that a person with 100 jumps does not know enough to give advice. They don't have the experience.

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I still believe even parrots can offer some really good advice!



And I never understand the need to get advice from a bunch a folks that you don't know, and don't know if they have any skills. Instead of asking your instructors or S&TA's....

Now, why would you take advice from someone with 100 jumps when there are folks that have proven they know the subject matter, and have shown they know how to communicate it?

Fact is the most dangerous thing about a person with 100 jumps is that they don't know what they don't know.

Giving advice can cause big problems if you don't have the whole picture. And I have yet to meet a person with 100 jumps that knew enough to give advice...The best they can do is say what worked for them...And while that may work.... that may not be right.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Umm I'm making my first dive on Jan 9 th and I'm very very excited about the upcomming jump, but after reading something like " you will watch your friends die" has me thinking otherwise. Doesn't sound like such a great sport to get into after reading a statement like that.



Ok rough numbers...

USPA members about 35,000.
Fatalities so far this year 23.

One in 1,521 died.

Now there are less than 35,000 active jumpers....And students don't have to join the USPA right off...Tandem jumpers don't have to join at all.

Skydiving is a very small sport....Look around at the DZ you go to...In 5 years there is a good chance one of them will be dead.

Peep http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/

for more info....
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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OTOH I can explain the effects of brakes, risers and "getting small" on getting back from a long spot to anyone who will listen



Yes, and at 100 jumps you were a little bit different than the normal 100 jump wonder. Hell, you teach physics.

And while I would recomend anyone listen to you (even at 100 jumps) about theory....I would not recomend them listen to you (at 100 jumps) about application.

I guess it boils down to getting info on WHAT to do...But getting an Instructor to teach HOW to do it.


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You gonna be at ZHills this weekend? I may drive down.



Hell, I live there...I'm there ever weekend. Come on down. Got a fold out bed if ya need it. (I must add I have never used it so I have no idea how it sleeps.)

You fly R/C also right?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Yes, since 1964. Wrote the first ever R/C flight simulator and made a bunch of $$ (which the ex-wife now has).



What was the name of the sim?

I have been flying since 1985. Hell bring a plane or one of those Gyros and maybe we can sneak off to the flying field in the morning.

This past weekend we had a Pitts flying jumpers and I was flying a 1/3 scale pitts around the DZ during a WX hold.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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In Reply To
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You gonna be at ZHills this weekend? I may drive down.
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Hell, I live there...I'm there ever weekend. Come on down. Got a fold out bed if ya need it.



Please do! I was about to post to both of ya:GET A ROOM ALREADY! (and continue this thread in private!):P

marc

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Gee had to look them up.

Main Entry: ris·i·ble
Pronunciation: 'ri-z&-b&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin risibilis, from Latin risus, past participle of ridEre to laugh
Date: 1557
1 a : capable of laughing b : disposed to laugh
2 : arousing or provoking laughter; especially : LAUGHABLE
3 : associated with, relating to, or used in laughter

Main Entry: per·spi·ca·cious
Pronunciation: "p&r-sp&-'kA-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin perspicac-, perspicax, from perspicere
Date: 1640
: of acute mental vision or discernment : KEEN
synonym see SHREWD
- per·spi·ca·cious·ly adverb
- per·spi·ca·cious·ness noun
- per·spi·cac·i·ty /-'ka-s&-tE/ noun


Main Entry: her·i·ta·ble
Pronunciation: 'her-&-t&-b&l
Function: adjective
Date: 14th century
1 : capable of being inherited or of passing by inheritance

Main Entry: frac·tious
Pronunciation: 'frak-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: fraction (discord) + -ous
Date: 1725
1 : tending to be troublesome : UNRULY
2 : QUARRELSOME, IRRITABLE
- frac·tious·ly adverb
- frac·tious·ness noun



Anyone who has taken an entry level course in logic should also be familiar with the Latin term ad hominem. This term is used by logicians to describe what is probably the most commonly used logical fallacy. The idea behind ad hominem is that it is an error in logic to weigh the merits of an argument by virtue of who is making the argument. An example of this would be something like, "Don't trust that Christopher Columbus guy! The only reason he says the earth is round is because he wants Spain to build three ships for him." Even if it was true that Columbus had an ulterior motive in stating that the earth was not flat, it has no impact whatsoever on the truth value of what he professed.

Ad hominem manifests itself in several ways, including blind credentialism. As it relates to the instant discussion, an example of this might go something like, "You want to know how I'm right? My 82,000 jumps and my half-bazillion certificates and qualifications proves I'm right!" Arguments, statements, and opinions either have merit, or they don't. It matters not at all by whom these ideas were given.

For anyone who doubts the above-expressed position, just look through some of the earlier posts in this thread as they are replete with examples of sage advice being given by total newbies as well as examples of "expert" advice that is pretty ridiculous on its face. Relying on advice just because it came from these forums, an instructor at the DZ, or a particular publication is a fool's gambit.

Just to be clear, I am not contending that a person's background should be given no creedence at all. In fact, consideration of one's background is a valuable heuristic to employ from an inductive point of view. It does follow that the best advice, more often than not, comes from those with the most experience, training, etc. It's just not always the case nor is it necessarily the case.

Assuming the truth of what I've stated so far, it is axiomatic that we should focus almost entirely on what is being said as opposed to who is saying it. Long story short, it is up to the receiver of a given message to discern between gospel and bullshit, not the sender. Newbies should be actively encouraged to try to help others, if for no other reason than to correct them whenever they're mistaken. Same goes for the skygods as well, if for no other reason than to remind them of some of the things they may have forgotten from their training. Only when ideas are expressed freely without fear of humiliation from others can debate produce truth.

Ultimately, the things we have all come to know or believe about our sport is a composite of the information we receive from everywhere. Because of this, skydivers need to be able to adduce information from myriad sources and weigh them accordingly. If you encounter someone at the DZ incapable of doing this, kindly suggest to them that they might live longer by taking up something like "Simon Says", painting by numbers, or even country line-step dancing (let me apologize in advance to anyone offended by my suggestion that line-step dancing doesn't require the capacity for intelligent thought).

Contrary to the old cliche, we should speak evil, hear evil, see evil, listen to it, taste it, smack it on the ass a few times (I think you get the picture). B|



A logician you are. An instructor you are not.

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If you give someone advice, they go out and kill thenselves, they are the dumbass for taking your advice. Too ask questions, opinions is one thing, but the person responsible is the one who is dead.

Too many people get messed up or dead, because they did stupid things or pushed the "cool" factor, in my opinion.

When i am in the air, i am responsible for my decissions, not the persons whos advice i took....

If ya need to be asking a lot of advice chances are you should ask the dz operator who is the most qualified on site to answer your question or guide you to the proper people with the skills at hand.


One can never ask a dumb question just imply that what they are told is the fact and act on that fact. You and only you are responsible for your decissions. Some learn some die.

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