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airtwardo

"Insurance & PRO" Update

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see 10 Year Report - pdf file



Thanks!

Again - I pose the question - what are these big payouts that are forcing the rates up? Are we really talking about events that happened in 96 before the pro requirement?

There does not seem to be an excesive number of injuries or claims in the pro section at all.

Now I'm really confused.

_Am


I agree!

Without those two high dollar claims, 300,000 & 600,000
The PRO liability seems minuscule in comparison...

Things that make ya go HUMMM! :|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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That is an interesting report without much detail... One thing I noticed was 19 claims for plane in flight? What are these about? Is this dz owners claiming for damages to their jump plane? This is 222,000 that in that case shouldn't have been paid out as a general membership claim - shouldn't it be covered under their a/c policy?

This report really doesn't clear anything up?!
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Does the USPA provide a loss run from the past years to us or the public. Maybe we could impose
an individual deductible of maybe $50 or $100 to each member if we damage somthing. I would rather
do the deductible thing rather than pay a additional
fees. Some food for thought..

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All this insurance nonsense has gotten our little charity demo team pretty much out of the demo game. We have never done a demo for profit. All of our demos were for non-profit, charitable, or civic organizations.
At this point we can't risk our financial well being. And I've done demos unisured, it's no problem until something happens.
Hopefully this will get worked out, so us "casual" demo jumpers can still have our niche.
I use the term "casual" very carefully. We would NEVER do a demo outside our abilities. We have said no to several potential demos we felt we could do but, may push our abilties.
We'll leave that to the pro's like Twardo's team and the like or the military teams.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

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I don't think the jumper was but I think the woman he landed on was... it was running on CNN for a while when it happened.

***
Duh!! :o
You meant injured...
you're right...she was!
My single mindedness made me think you meant insured...
DOUHHH! :S










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Although no concrete figures are yet available.
..the representative felt that their numbers would be 'significantly' lower that what the USPA is presently
paying. (465,000 + -)
for what should essentially be the same coverage...
(possibly sans the aircraft coverage)

As far as the PRO Rating is concerned...

As I mentioned in a prior thread, I felt that some kind
of reassessment of the current program would be
forth coming.
It appears as though I was correct, several ideas are currently being looked at.
Among them are fee increases in both the initial rating
and renewals of current holders cards.

Nothing concrete yet, but I've heard 350.00
as a ballpark figure for new rating applicants,
and around 250.00 to renew.

*** Jim: I hate to sound cheap and maybe I'm missing something obvious but, if insurance rates are going to go down, why are the application and renewal rates going up? Is it so that non PRO rated USPA members don't have to help support the program, and if so, will USPA membership dues go down? I'm all about increasing the Standards of PRO rating holders. Go Texas

Jump nice
John Wright

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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Jim: I hate to sound cheap and maybe I'm missing something obvious but, if insurance rates are going to go down, why are the application and renewal rates going up? Is it so that non PRO rated USPA members don't have to help support the program, and if so, will USPA membership dues go down? I'm all about increasing the Standards of PRO rating holders. Go Texas
***

John,
I honestly don't know if rates are in fact going to decrease...
That's my hope, and what I've been led to believe
in the 'most general of terms'
...if ya get my drift. :$

Your assessment is pretty much in line
with what I am thinking...

They may be talking about raising the PRO rating fees to compensate for what the general fund currently kicks in.

But who knows for sure...
None of this is on the USPA website...
Though there are several comments pertaining
to a deductible for each incident.

All I know for sure is that there is another company
working up a bid...
They seemed to think it would be a lot better than
what we are now paying...

Only time will tell. :|

Happy New Year Brother!:)
Go Florida!!;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Ski slopes have federal laws specifically tailored to protect them of any liability.


I'd like to hear more about this style of protection as I firmly believe that each time the USPA comes up with more money for the same policy, the same lawyers are going to carve out a huge share of it. The trick is not to be a target in the first place!

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We'll leave that to the pro's like Twardo's team and the like or the military teams.
***
I thank you for the compliment Jim!

Coming from you that truly means a lot..:$

Though I certainly wouldn't put my group in the league
with the Military Teams...

Hang in there ole buddy...;)
Who knows if things work out, this whole Demo issue
may resolve itself in a way that makes it work for everyone!











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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One side note on the Ski issue is that the Dropzones are'nt the ones being sued... its property damage claims from individual members is where the insurance is coming into play. Dropzones are protected under their wavier much as how ski slopes are protected under basically a national waiver.

To compare this against any other sport you would have to find another sport that offers members insureance, then look at its membership numbers and then claim numbers. For instance I know that you can get insurance for if you are out riding a bike and ride into someones car and damage it.

Simple way to prevent raising prices.... prevent claims. If its things like dropped space balls causing damage, make the person responsible pay some. I know if you chop a main and it goes into a combine the USPA insurace can pay to fix any damage done to the combine if the farmer wants to have it paid for.

Demos are extemely different from Ski slopes where to get to the top of a ski slope you have to buy a ticket and by buying the ticket you waive your rights. Just being in the crowd at a demo does'nt waive your rights.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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One side note on the Ski issue is that the Dropzones are'nt the ones being sued... its property damage claims from individual members is where the insurance is coming into play. Dropzones are protected under their wavier much as how ski slopes are protected under basically a national waiver.


So you are saying that it is the individual members who have nothing to lose since the organization as a whole picks up the bill for their bad decisions. So it still is a tragedy of the commons situation. If no insurance is not an option then maybe it's time to introduce a hefty deductible into the equation.

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Am I hearing you right? $250.00 to renew the rating?!? LOL ... at least I'll have my pretty card to show that I once held it.

I believe that if this is the case, many PRO raters will be pullin chocks, and there will be a very weak backbone in the industry supporting hikes in insurance. Support will mostlikely go to USPA renewal fees strictly going to personal liability and Demo dudes will have to be lookin elsewhere.

If I'm hearing you right, watch for this hidden demon, it may come back and bite PRO raters in the balls down the road. There is security in numbers.

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I, until reading these posts was not aware of the huge cost to maintain your ratings. Yeah I am new
to this sport and the people with ratings should not
be increased on their fees. Come on USPA, don't chase these people away, PROmote the sport not
DEmote. Talk about penny wise & dollar stupid. I am in the insurance biz & raising premiums IS NOT THE
FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE. It's called management.
I will write to the USPA with some of my thoughts, Im a small voice but better than no voice.

Be well All

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Just to clarify, the demos I was referring to were based out of the DZ in Parkman (where I used to work).

I'm not clear on the demo policies for Aerohio as they have an organized demo team which I am not a member of.

Truthfully, things may have changed at Parkman as well, as I haven't done a demo out of there for a few years.

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Who should have to pick up the deductible? The USPA only forwards all claims to the insurance agent and thats the end of their involvement. If the USPA could co-process the claims and say "Broke the FAR's... no coverage for you" or "BSR violation terminates the coverage" that might help to reduce some of the claims.

What we need to see is exactly what ype of claims are being made against the insurance and by whom to see if we can't figure ways out to reduce some of the liability. If jumpers are causing damage by flying into parked planes on airports then the USPA might need to lobby that DZ to move its landing area away from the parking area or it will not approve claims of that type anymore. If its dropzone owners filing claims on jump planes that jumpers damage.... thats a whole nother can of worms.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Information on USPA Insurance
(in no particular order)

The BSRs must be followed in order for coverage to be valid.

Damage from cutaway canopies, handles, helmets, altimeters, etc. is covered. Any regular equipment that causes damage is covered.

Skyballs, surfboards and the like are not covered, as that equipment is not regular equipment.

A jumper hitting the aircraft is what usually causes damage to aircraft in the air. Sample: King air left flap; Horizontal stabilizer

Deductibles:
The premium would not change significantly until the deductible amount is over $1000. There is no way USPA can ensure that a deductible would be paid by a member.

Individual and Demonstration insurance can exist without the other one. [Someone posted that Individual insurance could only exist with demo insurance. not true.]

The number of USPA PRO rating holders is just over 200. The number of different members that buy demo policies is between 200 and 300.

From the 10-year report:


Category # $ Average %
*Demonstration Jumps 12 $1,001,231 $83,436 54%
**Other 71 $ 395,802 $ 5,574 21%
Plane in Flight 19 $ 222,640 $11,718 12%
Plane on Ground 31 $ 146,463 $ 4,724 8%
Auto on Ground 47 $ 90,779 $ 1,931 5%


This is the breakdown of the claims. [I added a column of average.] We are small potatoes to the insurance carriers they are not going to make actuarial tables for such a small number.

Third party insurance for individual members has been around since the early PCA days. It is one of the primary missions of USPA. In the 1960's it was optional. You paid an extra fee for coverage.

Third party insurance for demos is a secondary mission for USPA. There are various opinions on how well demos recruit new jumpers. Some people claim that only a handful of people start jumping because they saw a jumper at a demo. Others claim that they get lots of new jumpers from demos. Obviously, the GK use demos effectively for recruiting. They recruit soldiers, in general, not only jumpers.

Our insurance coverage is not something insurance carriers are out competing for. We have a tiny population base, ~35,000.

Michelle Garvin compiled a list of 14 different options to change our insurance coverage. Options ranged from eliminating the insurance completely to bite the bullet and pay the higher premiums. Several other options were removing categories of coverage, i.e. aircraft on the ground etc., self-insurance and deductibles. Another option is to rearrange who pays the premiums based on who files the most claims (by $ and number of incidents).

The numbers for self-insurance are the most attractive. There are two MAJOR obstacles with self-insurance:
1. Self-insurance would not meet city, county or state requirements at some DZs.
2. It would take a few years to fund it properly. You need something like $1M to 1.5M in the fund in order for it to qualify.
There are also some administration type logistics obstacles that are non-trivial.

The option that redistributes the premiums to the people filing the claims is only a proposal. Everyone realizes that a significant increase in the PRO rating fee and renewal will eliminate the backyard type demos or they would be done without insurance. The professional teams will pass this extra expense on to their customers. The number of PRO rating holders would probably drop significantly.

There are also some other ways to set the demo premiums based on rating, experience, previous claim history, number of jumpers etc.

USPA has a much larger number of individual members that do not want to see their membership fee increased because of increases in insurance premiums partially driven by demo jumps.

USPA has NOT made any decision on what to do about the insurance. That will happen at the BOD meeting in Feb. The policy is renewed on March 1.

I am crossing my fingers that Michelle has brow beat the carriers and found some better policies. They are supposed to be in by the end of the year (today). Michelle has done a TON of work on this.

Hopefully, members will realize that any cost increases are not what we want and that we want to keep insurance for members.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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Information on USPA Insurance
(in no particular order)...


Could you explain the plane in flight, plane on ground, and auto on ground?

I would think that the DZO would cover damage to his airplanes in the air or ground in the price of the jump. Walmart eats it when a customer drops the digital camera they are looking at and it goes through the glass counter-top.

I think the auto on the ground would be covered by the owners policy just like if a kid pushes a shopping cart or his mountian bike into your car causing damage. That's part of the risk of owning chattel.

I grew up in a family business, and we ate lots of mistakes by customers; it's part of doing business.

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The issue with 3rd party insureance and deductibles is that the insurance writes the check right away and the USPA has to cover the deductable amount until the member decides to pay it. A few nonpaying members and we are in even more trouble financially then we are right now.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Could you explain the plane in flight, plane on ground, and auto on ground?



A jumper hitting the aircraft is what usually causes damage to aircraft in the air. Sample: King air left flap; Horizontal stabilizer

plane in flight: is when it is off the ground. Normally the pilot has control of the AC.
A jumper can hit the AC on exit, sometimes this causes damage. Typical stuff: King Air left flap, horizontal stabilizer.

plane on ground: is when the plane is on the ground, taxi or parked.
Sometimes jumpers land on them and cause damage.

Auto on the ground: well, let's hope so. But this is not always the case if you are in Arizona.
Sometimes jumpers land on them and cause damage.


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I would think that the DZO would cover damage to his airplanes in the air or ground in the price of the jump. Walmart eats it when a customer drops the digital camera they are looking at and it goes through the glass counter-top.

I think the auto on the ground would be covered by the owners policy just like if a kid pushes a shopping cart or his mountian bike into your car causing damage. That's part of the risk of owning chattel.

I grew up in a family business, and we ate lots of mistakes by customers; it's part of doing business.



If someone crashed into your car at WalMart, then the insurance of the driver of the vehicle that hit you would be the insurance that should pay for damages, not WalMart's and not your insurance.

Example: A guy had a high approach at a sunset swoop & chug. He let go of both toggles, gave the finger to the crowd, then proceeded to hit a parked car.

If that was my car, I'd want the jumper to pay for damages.
If I was the DZO, I'd want the jumper to pay for damages.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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Could you explain the plane in flight, plane on ground, and auto on ground?


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A jumper hitting the aircraft is what usually causes damage to aircraft in the air. Sample: King air left flap; Horizontal stabilizer.

plane in flight: is when it is off the ground. Normally the pilot has control of the AC. A jumper can hit the AC on exit, sometimes this causes damage. Typical stuff: King Air left flap, horizontal stabilizer.

plane on ground: is when the plane is on the ground, taxi or parked. Sometimes jumpers land on them and cause damage.

Auto on the ground: well, let's hope so. But this is not always the case if you are in Arizona. Sometimes jumpers land on them and cause damage.


But the DZO(s) aircraft in the air or on the ground are not third party chattel are they?

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