RTB 0 #1 January 4, 2004 As a further thought regarding a discussion in a thread in Safety and Training. Why is skydiving perceived as more or less safe by different individuals? I think maybe it does have to do with number of years in the sport, but with a different way of explaining it. Most people outside of the sport see skydiving as generally dangerous, so when you begin this is what you are accustomed to. Then you get to see with your own eyes that these are normal people that do not have a death wish. And they help the students to be as safe as possible. So you start seeing skydiving as less dangerous than the whuffos. Then after x amount of years, even though you now can take care of your self, there is still the risk of someone colliding with you on deployment, under canopy of something else. You see people get hurt or die, so if is evidently not so safe. I still tell people outside the sport that it is not so dangerous, because I'm afraid they exaggerate the dangers, but to someone who is new to the sport and acting reckless, well they might need to be reminded of how easily things can go wrong. Just a reflection. //r Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #2 January 4, 2004 QuoteI still tell people outside the sport that it is not so dangerous ***you are lying to them.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JoeyRamone 0 #3 January 4, 2004 We were all whuffos at one time, What were your first thoughts? The shit ya here on TV and in the media, or second had from a friend who jumped... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Mush 0 #4 January 4, 2004 Dude When I went to my aff course I had no idea of STATS, who dies & who don't, people die skydiving- riding bikes- snowboarding-walking-taking a bath, we all need to take a bath/shower. If you live near snowy mountians you will prob ski/snowboard, everybody drives a 1 ton metal missile, there is no reason to jump out of a plane, so why do we do it, we are driven by something, I don't know what it is, but it is just diffrent. Don't question it too hard if thats what you feel you need to do, just do it with an open mind. Mush Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #5 January 4, 2004 First, there are numerous threads on this particular subject here in these forums. A search may further pique your interest and/or help you become better informed. Next, I will throw in my two cents for this thread . . . I get this question a lot, and I am compelled to give honest answers stemming from my experience in the sport and my awareness of the risks involved. Is skydiving dangerous? The short answer is: "Yes". The answer that seems to put many skydivers on the defense is: "Yes, but . . ." Many skydivers choose to follow this response with statistics or by comparing skydiving with other routine activities. Personally, I shy away from statistics, as they can be manipulated to suit the person quoting them. See more of my thoughts on that subject HERE The rest of my contribution to that thread reflects my view on skydiving being safe or not. I will add that people have different comfort zones. This set of limits may have been self-imposed, or may be as a result of many other factors such as upbringing, past personal experiences, or cautionary words from someone with little knowledge of the issue. Part of the value of skydiving for me early on was smashing the walls of my self-imposed comfort zone, and discovering the endless challenges that the sport brings. When one of my tandem students walks away from the dropzone a little less afraid of the world we live in, and more confident in their ability to take on challenges in their life, I reap my own small reward. When one chooses to start skydiving, and applies the "crawl, walk, run" theory to each new experience in the sport, especially by taking advantage of available professional instruction, they are in for a long, safe, fruitful skydiving career. I hope yours is as incredible as mine has been (thus far - I ain't done yet)! Respectufully,Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RTB 0 #6 January 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteI still tell people outside the sport that it is not so dangerous ***you are lying to them. The point I was trying to make is that is is probably safer than they think it is. When doing a tandem with someone who has never jumped before and is nervous, I don't stress the fact that we could die. I wouldn't lie about it if they asked though. //r Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smellysue 0 #7 January 4, 2004 My 1st thoughts when my otherhalf started to jump was i only hope he does it once and doesnt like it..... But he loved it and now I know why it is the best most interesting thing I think he's partisipated in and now Ive joined him in the skies even if im still a student im there any way and love it to. We are all unique in some way as my other half once told me and i love him more so now that we share someting so special and every one at the Dz has made me so welcome it's fab... Many more happy jumps and to us all in a brand new year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Antithesis 0 #8 January 4, 2004 Safe or not, I love it! I personally don't think that it is all togather safe. I've traveled around to several dz's in the last year and within the last yr at least 5 people that I've met have had fatal accidents. These people were all very experienced divers.. But they were also doing what they loved. I look at it like this though. It can be as safe as you make it for your self, all depending on the risks that you're willing to take and how far you want to go. I'm starting to think that how comfortable a person becomes at taking higher risks in the sport is equal to the level of danger that they are playing with. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #9 January 4, 2004 QuoteI'm starting to think that how comfortable a person becomes at taking higher risks in the sport is equal to the level of danger that they are playing with. Some people have years of training and experiencing in evaluating possible risks, and reducing those risks through planning, training, equipment, etc. so that the risk is as small as it can be. I consider those people "comfortable" with taking risks. This element does not include those who are comfortable simply because they are grossly uninformed. Others have become so used to the risks they are taking that they really don't even think about the dangers any more. I consider those people "complacent" with regard to taking risks. In my opinion, those who are "comfortable" will have a long, successful skydiving career, and those who are "complacent" are at a much higher risk than "comfortable" foks who have prepared for a risk-taking endeavor.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #10 January 4, 2004 It's not safe. That being said, I think it is perceived as more risky than it is. I think there are two reasons for that perception. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. 2. When compared to driving, bathing, crossing the street, and so forth, that is something which is an accustomed part of our day. We shower, we drive, we go out into storms. It's something we address on a daily basis. We've been doing it all our lives, as our parents before us, and theirs before them. We are exposed to that since birth, and have an inherent comfortability about it. It doesn't mean the risk isn't there - it's just accepted and common. However, a cultural (global) belief is that we can't fly. We are used to water - even those who don't swim can wade. It is not foreign. Greek mythology talks about a guy (Icarus...I think) making wings with feathers and wax, and flying so high he neared the sun and his wings melted, plunging him to his death. It is a cautionary tale about not exceeding your parameters, and the sky - body flight - is thought to be outside those parameters. And indeed was until early this century. The Wright brothers changed those parameters. How many people can name the folks who invented scuba who are not scuba divers? I can't. I'm not a pilot, but I can name the inventors of the first working plane....see what I mean? Water, a totally foreign element, holding lots of the same risk, has been with us since forever. But flight - and body flight - has not been. I think, therefore, that as the automatic assumption is leave a plane in midflight and you will die (as taught to us culturally), is one which will take a very long time to leave the conversation. I find the "impossible to survive" ideology deeply entrenched in the human mind, and thus almost impossible to counteract. And it makes me have even more admiration for those who pioneer things, be it body flight or other leaps of imagination. Nothing has ever been accomplished without a dream first, and to those who dream, thanks! Maybe that's a tad more philosophical than you were expecting, but it's how I think about skydiving and about body flight.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Antithesis 0 #11 January 4, 2004 I respect and cannot dissagree with any part of your statement. I can only add that there I see a very fine line between comfort and complacency and that line seems not to discriminate between high and low jump #'s. I'm not the kind of person that would tell someone with experience what they should be doing or not. I strongly believe that peple can become capable of regulating their own endevors with their own judgement. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Antithesis 0 #12 January 4, 2004 My hat is off in a toast to the eternal quest and struggle for human potential. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RoadRash 0 #13 January 4, 2004 QuoteIt's not safe. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. Ciels- Michele YESSS!!! In another thread on this subject, I replied with something similar. And when you drive a car, or ride in a car, you wear a seatbelt, sort of like wearing, say a helmet or other piece of equipment to help protect yourself, though there are are no guarantees in life (alright, death and taxes...), but perceptions of safety change with each person and my perception personally changed following experiences in this sport, but then again, the question following incidents and deaths is why we continue to do it...for me, it is how it makes me feel when I am out the door and experiencing ultimate freedom...Cheers...~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #14 January 5, 2004 Quotethat line seems not to discriminate between high and low jump #'s. I think this is the best point I have seen thus far in this thread. Perfect.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dkf1979 0 #15 January 5, 2004 Ok, how many of you can say you've never felt as ALIVE as when you leave that plane? As close to death as it might be, you feel more alive than you ever have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigfritz 0 #16 January 5, 2004 The only time I was scared was doing my first static line jump. Hangin on to the strut of that C-182 with the wind blastin at me. After that, now I just want to jump, jump, and jump some more! ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FunBobby 0 #17 January 5, 2004 QuoteIt's not safe. That being said, I think it is perceived as more risky than it is. I think there are two reasons for that perception. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. Ahhhh, very well said. In my line of work, I do a lot of risk analysis, which sometimes becomes a rather lengthy and involved process. 2 elements that define how risky an event is are the probability and severity of that event happening. In skydiving, statistically speaking, the probability of having a really, really bad malfunction may be pretty low, but the severity of the outcome of having that really bad malfunction is awful. There's a saying about aviation... it's not necessarily dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving. The same might be said for skydiving. Cheers - FunBobby Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #18 January 5, 2004 Quoteit's not necessarily dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving Thank you. With your permission, I will use this whenever I can. It's the best description I've ever heard. As a non-jumper, I suspected it was probably not as suicidal as it seems. As a low timer I thought I was fairly safe. Then this happened. I'm careful now. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firstime 0 #19 January 5, 2004 we dont percieve it do be "cheating death" as most would say. We have just encountered in a sport(extreme) that 99% of the people that we meet would not do. Once we (1%) realize that this is something that we can do with a simple thought that "yes I could die". With that in thought" do you dicuss your driving habits with all those people on the freeway before you leave for work./ No We Dont!! Yes we risk ourselves but we know the risks and we discuss them on a regular basis with each other and yes we will have accidents but the more communication within our comrade' will help us to a large degree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #20 January 5, 2004 QuoteWhen one chooses to start skydiving, and applies the "crawl, walk, run" theory to each new experience in the sport, especially by taking advantage of available professional instruction, they are in for a long, safe, fruitful skydiving career. and applies the "crawl, walk, run, sprint, run, walk, walk slowly, walk with a zimmer frame, crawl" theory.. you start to ask your harness manufacturer about posibilities for "upsizing" the canopies in your container. Fortunatly, crossbraced rags pack big, so you can go bigger later! I'm not done either! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #21 January 5, 2004 It's only as dangerous as you make it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #22 January 5, 2004 QuoteIt's only as dangerous as you make it. Don't agree. I know lots of dead skydivers (14 in the Perris crash, and many other solo's) who had no hand in their own demise. Yes, I know that plane crashes are not skydiving fatalities - but we wouldn't be on the kite if it were not for our sport, no? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vonSanta 0 #23 January 5, 2004 I'd consider it a skydive fatality for the very reason you mention. How is such a situation categorized - as general aviation casualties or skydive casualties? Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #24 January 5, 2004 >Thank you. With your permission, I will use this whenever I can. It's >the best description I've ever heard. There's an old description about aviation that, I think, applies as much to skydiving as it does to airplanes: Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelesness, incapacity or neglect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #25 January 5, 2004 There is also another saying: "You can do everything right and still die". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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JoeyRamone 0 #3 January 4, 2004 We were all whuffos at one time, What were your first thoughts? The shit ya here on TV and in the media, or second had from a friend who jumped... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mush 0 #4 January 4, 2004 Dude When I went to my aff course I had no idea of STATS, who dies & who don't, people die skydiving- riding bikes- snowboarding-walking-taking a bath, we all need to take a bath/shower. If you live near snowy mountians you will prob ski/snowboard, everybody drives a 1 ton metal missile, there is no reason to jump out of a plane, so why do we do it, we are driven by something, I don't know what it is, but it is just diffrent. Don't question it too hard if thats what you feel you need to do, just do it with an open mind. Mush Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #5 January 4, 2004 First, there are numerous threads on this particular subject here in these forums. A search may further pique your interest and/or help you become better informed. Next, I will throw in my two cents for this thread . . . I get this question a lot, and I am compelled to give honest answers stemming from my experience in the sport and my awareness of the risks involved. Is skydiving dangerous? The short answer is: "Yes". The answer that seems to put many skydivers on the defense is: "Yes, but . . ." Many skydivers choose to follow this response with statistics or by comparing skydiving with other routine activities. Personally, I shy away from statistics, as they can be manipulated to suit the person quoting them. See more of my thoughts on that subject HERE The rest of my contribution to that thread reflects my view on skydiving being safe or not. I will add that people have different comfort zones. This set of limits may have been self-imposed, or may be as a result of many other factors such as upbringing, past personal experiences, or cautionary words from someone with little knowledge of the issue. Part of the value of skydiving for me early on was smashing the walls of my self-imposed comfort zone, and discovering the endless challenges that the sport brings. When one of my tandem students walks away from the dropzone a little less afraid of the world we live in, and more confident in their ability to take on challenges in their life, I reap my own small reward. When one chooses to start skydiving, and applies the "crawl, walk, run" theory to each new experience in the sport, especially by taking advantage of available professional instruction, they are in for a long, safe, fruitful skydiving career. I hope yours is as incredible as mine has been (thus far - I ain't done yet)! Respectufully,Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RTB 0 #6 January 4, 2004 QuoteQuoteI still tell people outside the sport that it is not so dangerous ***you are lying to them. The point I was trying to make is that is is probably safer than they think it is. When doing a tandem with someone who has never jumped before and is nervous, I don't stress the fact that we could die. I wouldn't lie about it if they asked though. //r Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites smellysue 0 #7 January 4, 2004 My 1st thoughts when my otherhalf started to jump was i only hope he does it once and doesnt like it..... But he loved it and now I know why it is the best most interesting thing I think he's partisipated in and now Ive joined him in the skies even if im still a student im there any way and love it to. We are all unique in some way as my other half once told me and i love him more so now that we share someting so special and every one at the Dz has made me so welcome it's fab... Many more happy jumps and to us all in a brand new year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Antithesis 0 #8 January 4, 2004 Safe or not, I love it! I personally don't think that it is all togather safe. I've traveled around to several dz's in the last year and within the last yr at least 5 people that I've met have had fatal accidents. These people were all very experienced divers.. But they were also doing what they loved. I look at it like this though. It can be as safe as you make it for your self, all depending on the risks that you're willing to take and how far you want to go. I'm starting to think that how comfortable a person becomes at taking higher risks in the sport is equal to the level of danger that they are playing with. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #9 January 4, 2004 QuoteI'm starting to think that how comfortable a person becomes at taking higher risks in the sport is equal to the level of danger that they are playing with. Some people have years of training and experiencing in evaluating possible risks, and reducing those risks through planning, training, equipment, etc. so that the risk is as small as it can be. I consider those people "comfortable" with taking risks. This element does not include those who are comfortable simply because they are grossly uninformed. Others have become so used to the risks they are taking that they really don't even think about the dangers any more. I consider those people "complacent" with regard to taking risks. In my opinion, those who are "comfortable" will have a long, successful skydiving career, and those who are "complacent" are at a much higher risk than "comfortable" foks who have prepared for a risk-taking endeavor.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #10 January 4, 2004 It's not safe. That being said, I think it is perceived as more risky than it is. I think there are two reasons for that perception. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. 2. When compared to driving, bathing, crossing the street, and so forth, that is something which is an accustomed part of our day. We shower, we drive, we go out into storms. It's something we address on a daily basis. We've been doing it all our lives, as our parents before us, and theirs before them. We are exposed to that since birth, and have an inherent comfortability about it. It doesn't mean the risk isn't there - it's just accepted and common. However, a cultural (global) belief is that we can't fly. We are used to water - even those who don't swim can wade. It is not foreign. Greek mythology talks about a guy (Icarus...I think) making wings with feathers and wax, and flying so high he neared the sun and his wings melted, plunging him to his death. It is a cautionary tale about not exceeding your parameters, and the sky - body flight - is thought to be outside those parameters. And indeed was until early this century. The Wright brothers changed those parameters. How many people can name the folks who invented scuba who are not scuba divers? I can't. I'm not a pilot, but I can name the inventors of the first working plane....see what I mean? Water, a totally foreign element, holding lots of the same risk, has been with us since forever. But flight - and body flight - has not been. I think, therefore, that as the automatic assumption is leave a plane in midflight and you will die (as taught to us culturally), is one which will take a very long time to leave the conversation. I find the "impossible to survive" ideology deeply entrenched in the human mind, and thus almost impossible to counteract. And it makes me have even more admiration for those who pioneer things, be it body flight or other leaps of imagination. Nothing has ever been accomplished without a dream first, and to those who dream, thanks! Maybe that's a tad more philosophical than you were expecting, but it's how I think about skydiving and about body flight.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Antithesis 0 #11 January 4, 2004 I respect and cannot dissagree with any part of your statement. I can only add that there I see a very fine line between comfort and complacency and that line seems not to discriminate between high and low jump #'s. I'm not the kind of person that would tell someone with experience what they should be doing or not. I strongly believe that peple can become capable of regulating their own endevors with their own judgement. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Antithesis 0 #12 January 4, 2004 My hat is off in a toast to the eternal quest and struggle for human potential. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RoadRash 0 #13 January 4, 2004 QuoteIt's not safe. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. Ciels- Michele YESSS!!! In another thread on this subject, I replied with something similar. And when you drive a car, or ride in a car, you wear a seatbelt, sort of like wearing, say a helmet or other piece of equipment to help protect yourself, though there are are no guarantees in life (alright, death and taxes...), but perceptions of safety change with each person and my perception personally changed following experiences in this sport, but then again, the question following incidents and deaths is why we continue to do it...for me, it is how it makes me feel when I am out the door and experiencing ultimate freedom...Cheers...~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slotperfect 7 #14 January 5, 2004 Quotethat line seems not to discriminate between high and low jump #'s. I think this is the best point I have seen thus far in this thread. Perfect.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dkf1979 0 #15 January 5, 2004 Ok, how many of you can say you've never felt as ALIVE as when you leave that plane? As close to death as it might be, you feel more alive than you ever have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bigfritz 0 #16 January 5, 2004 The only time I was scared was doing my first static line jump. Hangin on to the strut of that C-182 with the wind blastin at me. After that, now I just want to jump, jump, and jump some more! ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FunBobby 0 #17 January 5, 2004 QuoteIt's not safe. That being said, I think it is perceived as more risky than it is. I think there are two reasons for that perception. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. Ahhhh, very well said. In my line of work, I do a lot of risk analysis, which sometimes becomes a rather lengthy and involved process. 2 elements that define how risky an event is are the probability and severity of that event happening. In skydiving, statistically speaking, the probability of having a really, really bad malfunction may be pretty low, but the severity of the outcome of having that really bad malfunction is awful. There's a saying about aviation... it's not necessarily dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving. The same might be said for skydiving. Cheers - FunBobby Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Push 0 #18 January 5, 2004 Quoteit's not necessarily dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving Thank you. With your permission, I will use this whenever I can. It's the best description I've ever heard. As a non-jumper, I suspected it was probably not as suicidal as it seems. As a low timer I thought I was fairly safe. Then this happened. I'm careful now. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites firstime 0 #19 January 5, 2004 we dont percieve it do be "cheating death" as most would say. We have just encountered in a sport(extreme) that 99% of the people that we meet would not do. Once we (1%) realize that this is something that we can do with a simple thought that "yes I could die". With that in thought" do you dicuss your driving habits with all those people on the freeway before you leave for work./ No We Dont!! Yes we risk ourselves but we know the risks and we discuss them on a regular basis with each other and yes we will have accidents but the more communication within our comrade' will help us to a large degree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #20 January 5, 2004 QuoteWhen one chooses to start skydiving, and applies the "crawl, walk, run" theory to each new experience in the sport, especially by taking advantage of available professional instruction, they are in for a long, safe, fruitful skydiving career. and applies the "crawl, walk, run, sprint, run, walk, walk slowly, walk with a zimmer frame, crawl" theory.. you start to ask your harness manufacturer about posibilities for "upsizing" the canopies in your container. Fortunatly, crossbraced rags pack big, so you can go bigger later! I'm not done either! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #21 January 5, 2004 It's only as dangerous as you make it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #22 January 5, 2004 QuoteIt's only as dangerous as you make it. Don't agree. I know lots of dead skydivers (14 in the Perris crash, and many other solo's) who had no hand in their own demise. Yes, I know that plane crashes are not skydiving fatalities - but we wouldn't be on the kite if it were not for our sport, no? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vonSanta 0 #23 January 5, 2004 I'd consider it a skydive fatality for the very reason you mention. How is such a situation categorized - as general aviation casualties or skydive casualties? Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #24 January 5, 2004 >Thank you. With your permission, I will use this whenever I can. It's >the best description I've ever heard. There's an old description about aviation that, I think, applies as much to skydiving as it does to airplanes: Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelesness, incapacity or neglect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #25 January 5, 2004 There is also another saying: "You can do everything right and still die". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. 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smellysue 0 #7 January 4, 2004 My 1st thoughts when my otherhalf started to jump was i only hope he does it once and doesnt like it..... But he loved it and now I know why it is the best most interesting thing I think he's partisipated in and now Ive joined him in the skies even if im still a student im there any way and love it to. We are all unique in some way as my other half once told me and i love him more so now that we share someting so special and every one at the Dz has made me so welcome it's fab... Many more happy jumps and to us all in a brand new year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antithesis 0 #8 January 4, 2004 Safe or not, I love it! I personally don't think that it is all togather safe. I've traveled around to several dz's in the last year and within the last yr at least 5 people that I've met have had fatal accidents. These people were all very experienced divers.. But they were also doing what they loved. I look at it like this though. It can be as safe as you make it for your self, all depending on the risks that you're willing to take and how far you want to go. I'm starting to think that how comfortable a person becomes at taking higher risks in the sport is equal to the level of danger that they are playing with. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #9 January 4, 2004 QuoteI'm starting to think that how comfortable a person becomes at taking higher risks in the sport is equal to the level of danger that they are playing with. Some people have years of training and experiencing in evaluating possible risks, and reducing those risks through planning, training, equipment, etc. so that the risk is as small as it can be. I consider those people "comfortable" with taking risks. This element does not include those who are comfortable simply because they are grossly uninformed. Others have become so used to the risks they are taking that they really don't even think about the dangers any more. I consider those people "complacent" with regard to taking risks. In my opinion, those who are "comfortable" will have a long, successful skydiving career, and those who are "complacent" are at a much higher risk than "comfortable" foks who have prepared for a risk-taking endeavor.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #10 January 4, 2004 It's not safe. That being said, I think it is perceived as more risky than it is. I think there are two reasons for that perception. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. 2. When compared to driving, bathing, crossing the street, and so forth, that is something which is an accustomed part of our day. We shower, we drive, we go out into storms. It's something we address on a daily basis. We've been doing it all our lives, as our parents before us, and theirs before them. We are exposed to that since birth, and have an inherent comfortability about it. It doesn't mean the risk isn't there - it's just accepted and common. However, a cultural (global) belief is that we can't fly. We are used to water - even those who don't swim can wade. It is not foreign. Greek mythology talks about a guy (Icarus...I think) making wings with feathers and wax, and flying so high he neared the sun and his wings melted, plunging him to his death. It is a cautionary tale about not exceeding your parameters, and the sky - body flight - is thought to be outside those parameters. And indeed was until early this century. The Wright brothers changed those parameters. How many people can name the folks who invented scuba who are not scuba divers? I can't. I'm not a pilot, but I can name the inventors of the first working plane....see what I mean? Water, a totally foreign element, holding lots of the same risk, has been with us since forever. But flight - and body flight - has not been. I think, therefore, that as the automatic assumption is leave a plane in midflight and you will die (as taught to us culturally), is one which will take a very long time to leave the conversation. I find the "impossible to survive" ideology deeply entrenched in the human mind, and thus almost impossible to counteract. And it makes me have even more admiration for those who pioneer things, be it body flight or other leaps of imagination. Nothing has ever been accomplished without a dream first, and to those who dream, thanks! Maybe that's a tad more philosophical than you were expecting, but it's how I think about skydiving and about body flight.... Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antithesis 0 #11 January 4, 2004 I respect and cannot dissagree with any part of your statement. I can only add that there I see a very fine line between comfort and complacency and that line seems not to discriminate between high and low jump #'s. I'm not the kind of person that would tell someone with experience what they should be doing or not. I strongly believe that peple can become capable of regulating their own endevors with their own judgement. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Antithesis 0 #12 January 4, 2004 My hat is off in a toast to the eternal quest and struggle for human potential. I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #13 January 4, 2004 QuoteIt's not safe. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. Ciels- Michele YESSS!!! In another thread on this subject, I replied with something similar. And when you drive a car, or ride in a car, you wear a seatbelt, sort of like wearing, say a helmet or other piece of equipment to help protect yourself, though there are are no guarantees in life (alright, death and taxes...), but perceptions of safety change with each person and my perception personally changed following experiences in this sport, but then again, the question following incidents and deaths is why we continue to do it...for me, it is how it makes me feel when I am out the door and experiencing ultimate freedom...Cheers...~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #14 January 5, 2004 Quotethat line seems not to discriminate between high and low jump #'s. I think this is the best point I have seen thus far in this thread. Perfect.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dkf1979 0 #15 January 5, 2004 Ok, how many of you can say you've never felt as ALIVE as when you leave that plane? As close to death as it might be, you feel more alive than you ever have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigfritz 0 #16 January 5, 2004 The only time I was scared was doing my first static line jump. Hangin on to the strut of that C-182 with the wind blastin at me. After that, now I just want to jump, jump, and jump some more! ------------------------ Freefly, baby. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FunBobby 0 #17 January 5, 2004 QuoteIt's not safe. That being said, I think it is perceived as more risky than it is. I think there are two reasons for that perception. 1. The most common thought people have about parachuting is "well, what happens if the chute(s) doesn't open??" The end result of that, with very few exceptions, is that you die. That's a pretty severe outcome, and what people focus on. Worst case, you know? There is no concept of broken bones, just death. Whereas with an auto accident, you stand a very good chance of walking away from it. Ahhhh, very well said. In my line of work, I do a lot of risk analysis, which sometimes becomes a rather lengthy and involved process. 2 elements that define how risky an event is are the probability and severity of that event happening. In skydiving, statistically speaking, the probability of having a really, really bad malfunction may be pretty low, but the severity of the outcome of having that really bad malfunction is awful. There's a saying about aviation... it's not necessarily dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving. The same might be said for skydiving. Cheers - FunBobby Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #18 January 5, 2004 Quoteit's not necessarily dangerous, but it is terribly unforgiving Thank you. With your permission, I will use this whenever I can. It's the best description I've ever heard. As a non-jumper, I suspected it was probably not as suicidal as it seems. As a low timer I thought I was fairly safe. Then this happened. I'm careful now. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firstime 0 #19 January 5, 2004 we dont percieve it do be "cheating death" as most would say. We have just encountered in a sport(extreme) that 99% of the people that we meet would not do. Once we (1%) realize that this is something that we can do with a simple thought that "yes I could die". With that in thought" do you dicuss your driving habits with all those people on the freeway before you leave for work./ No We Dont!! Yes we risk ourselves but we know the risks and we discuss them on a regular basis with each other and yes we will have accidents but the more communication within our comrade' will help us to a large degree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #20 January 5, 2004 QuoteWhen one chooses to start skydiving, and applies the "crawl, walk, run" theory to each new experience in the sport, especially by taking advantage of available professional instruction, they are in for a long, safe, fruitful skydiving career. and applies the "crawl, walk, run, sprint, run, walk, walk slowly, walk with a zimmer frame, crawl" theory.. you start to ask your harness manufacturer about posibilities for "upsizing" the canopies in your container. Fortunatly, crossbraced rags pack big, so you can go bigger later! I'm not done either! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #21 January 5, 2004 It's only as dangerous as you make it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #22 January 5, 2004 QuoteIt's only as dangerous as you make it. Don't agree. I know lots of dead skydivers (14 in the Perris crash, and many other solo's) who had no hand in their own demise. Yes, I know that plane crashes are not skydiving fatalities - but we wouldn't be on the kite if it were not for our sport, no? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #23 January 5, 2004 I'd consider it a skydive fatality for the very reason you mention. How is such a situation categorized - as general aviation casualties or skydive casualties? Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #24 January 5, 2004 >Thank you. With your permission, I will use this whenever I can. It's >the best description I've ever heard. There's an old description about aviation that, I think, applies as much to skydiving as it does to airplanes: Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelesness, incapacity or neglect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #25 January 5, 2004 There is also another saying: "You can do everything right and still die". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
